The Perimeter That Fights Back

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All right, let's do this everybody. Today's kind of a cool episode on the Fence Podcast. We got Joseph here. And Joseph is well, not only is he a great guy, he works for a company that uh probably makes some of the best damn ballers out there and probably keeps most of us safe while we're walking this trip in Las Vegas and at a bus stop around town as well, I've seen. We got Joseph from Gibralar. Man, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Last but not least, uh you know, we all know this guy. If he's not drinking Fosters beer, he's driving desert racing cars. We got Sasha from Founders Fence in the house. Our normal co-host. What's happening everyone? So, hey guys. Uh, this is our last show. Is it our last show before? No, we got one more before the expo, right? One more before the expo, but the excitement, I mean, it's just everywhere we go now. There's just crates and cases and screens and stuff for the show. Um, Joseph, uh, you both are actually getting ready. So, I was gonna say, Joseph, you you got getting down to the wire for the show. Both of you are. just what's it like for you guys trying to prepare for this? Uh from our end, we have to uh basically get displays ready and pull them out of the crates and uh make sure they're clean and and get them repreed and you know fix all the rollers that were broken off by the last show from the guys with the forklifts that tore them up and do all of that. Do all of that and make sure all the backdrop pieces are there and uh yeah, it's uh it's fun. We'll have we'll have a myself, Tristan, and Jeff will be out there. So, we look forward to this. Wow. It's a good group. It's a good group. Yeah. Don't ask about our warehouse right now. You can't walk anywhere cuz we've had to test everything. Bit like Joseph, you know, we got some surprises coming. So, big, small, ugly. Um, so yeah, it our whole office is a absolute mess. You got to start packing it up soon, Sash, because ain't a lot of time to be transporting now. So, uh, you both do pretty cool booths. I mean, you guys, it's not like you show up and and throw a table down, you know, and start handing people business cards. You guys both put some effort into uh doing a good presentation and making sure you've got stuff for uh people to do and see. So, um for from the show standpoint, someone that puts on a show, um we love you guys. I mean, that's awesome because that makes the experience for everybody out there better. It makes the experience for the people attending, the other exhibitors. I mean, that's what helps the show um maintain and continue. So, I thank you guys for taking that effort and the time to do that. And I don't think people thank you guys enough for that. But uh it's a huge huge deal when we roll in there and we see that you guys actually put all that effort out for everybody because some of these people flew from thousands of miles away, some from other countries. So to have you guys go through and and put that much effort out for everybody, we can't thank you enough. Yeah, it's and also Brian, I don't know if we as vendors also say thank you to you and your team because I can only imagine if I'm freaking out and Jo freaking out what you guys are going through because we wouldn't have a show if it wasn't for you and your team. So, you know, we really appreciate everything FWA and FWA women do for us as as vendors and for our community. Yeah, we appreciate that. I mean, yeah, we realize it's all us, so um we appreciate that. Yeah. But but Joseph, let's get into this thing, man. Um, I know you guys obviously because you guys are always there supporting us and in pretty much the industry wherever we are. So, you know, that's awesome. But, um, I know you also because I can't walk anywhere in Las Vegas without, uh, seeing something of your guys'. So, let's talk about that. I mean, I know I bring it up at least once a year. Um, how much of a a footprint does Gibralar have in the Las Vegas Clark County area? Yeah. Um, in in in Las Vegas alone, we probably have uh we have about 11,500 ballards in the ground. Um, they're they're anywhere from, you know, an M30 level to an M50 level uh impact rating on those. Is that a machine gun or M30? Is that a gun? Yeah. So, yeah. So, it's a medium.

We'll get into that later on. We're definitely going to we're going to sort of educate everyone on these machine gun levels. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, but we we basically go from both sides of the strip from the welcome to Las Vegas sign all the way down. We wrap around uh over at T-Mobile Arena uh MGM Park and uh we go down to uh uh basically down to Fremont Street and then spread out from there. And then we've also have done multiple phases over around Las Vegas Convention Center. All they're a different color. They're all the the grayish silver metallic silver units. But, uh, yeah, we've done done a lot of work there. Uh, worked with probably 12 to 15 different contractors over the past 10 years and, uh, protects millions and millions of people every year out there. So, yeah, I see them all over. So, you know, um, when when I see I I live in Las Vegas as everybody knows. So, um, I get to see these things popping up everywhere, right? So, um, they don't and it's not like you just it's not like when we do a ballard, you know, at Las Vegas Fence, we dig a hole and throw a post in there, some concrete around them, right? But um thinking we're not raiding these things to hold back whatever you guys are holding back. Those those machine guns and things like Sasha said, you know, the tanks. But nonetheless, uh I noticed that man, they don't just do that. They tear out like an entire section of sidewalk going back sometimes six, eight feet beyond the ballard and then um a whole mesh system going in. We're talking about rebar, everything. But I noticed that they're not always real deep. So me tell me about that. Do you have different like shallow ones or you know what's the deal with that? Yeah. Yeah. So, we've got we've got units in Las Vegas as shallow as three and 38 inches depth. Um, with our ultra shallow units, uh, those will those will stop a a 30 mph, 15,000lb load, 30 mph, and less than one meter of penetration on the couch. U, and then our certified stuff, uh, most of the stuff that you see on the strip is going to be a 12 inch depth with an 8 foot 8ft front to back sidewalk. And that's a and that's a that's a subgrade welded structure. And uh we re put rebar through there, some mesh, and tie it all together. And that'll stop a a 15,000lb load at 50 mph. So So that that is they so they go down a foot and then you're saying it's welded to the to the rebar and the the steel and everything. Rebar's rebar's loose, but there's a subgrade frame. It's going to be basically an L-shape. And so your ballard's coming down. you're gonna have a frame welded that's going to be welded into a frame and then that frame will be all tied together with with rebar. Um, and so it it uh our design is unique in that it allows us to really really flow with the radius of like a curb line uh versus like a rigid, you know, a fixed ballard system where they have where it might be like a a sled where there's three or four on one sled. Um, this lets us really mold that rebar around the around the curb and and get get a really a custom fit for the for where the city needs them. So Wow. Yeah. Tell us how did you have you always been in fencing or sec high security about how you got into it and Yeah. Yeah. No, I have not um out of out of college. I'm actually uh I've got a wildlife biology degree out of college and um and I actually industry there's a lot of wild animals. Yeah. And and so but I but I got into a sales role out of college and um realized that sales was kind of where it's at and um did very well. Uh Lord blessed me and and and opened some opportunities and I got a call. So, uh, I got a call one day and I had worked in that for about three years and was a top performer and I got a call one day from Bill Nash who owns Jialter. Um, and I I'm married to his daughter and uh, he called me up and said and he said he said, "Hey, um, he said, "Hey, I'm I'm" At the time he had licensed all of his products out and so he didn't we didn't sell under the Jialter name. this 2015 and and he he asked me if I'd be interested in coming on and doing being the first sales role for that perimeter security side of the business and uh I took some time to pray about it and think about it and eventually came on board um and we had we had we had a deal with Beta Fence at the time and um and another another domestic supplier and uh we ended those

Agreements and basically from 2016 through now It's when we've built the Jibralter perimeter side of the business. U myself and Pete Llewellyn were were the first two guys brought on board. Pete Pete goes way back with State Department and Delta Scientific and and some of the big players in the anti-RAM side and um uh basically took me under his wing, taught me a lot. Uh he still works with me. Uh he's on my team, great great technical resource. Um but yeah, we we basically went from zero in 2016 to where we're at now. And uh it's been a it's been a ride. A lot lot of a lot of lessons learned and and and all that in the industry. So that's awesome. So your wife got you a job and uh pretty much that's how Sasha and I got my job, too. So don't Hey, it's still Yeah. Yeah. No, I I had to I had I had to keep the job after after she got the hard part, right? Yeah. You have to do the hard work after that. Yeah. I've you know and and Jialter's been a rock man. It's been it's been really cool to watch it. I've been fortunate enough to see you guys being obviously from around here, seeing how you guys have been uh really building your brand and it is really cool and even the stuff that you guys bring to the expos, you know, at the fence show and at Fence Tech and everywhere else, it's always really cool to see the products you guys bring and it's it is innovation. It's it's different. It's not there's not there's typically not anything else at the show that matches that level um that I've seen, you know, so kudos to you guys, man. And uh it's awesome. Yeah. But um that said though about high security, I think you're not a fence company, you know what I mean? You're not it's and and a lot we hear that a lot. Well, we're a high we do highsecurity fencing and then fencing what's and and I think a lot of fence companies are like that. Well, what's the difference? What's a you know what what what makes it a highsecurity fence? Yeah. Um well, I anytime we anytime we get a request like that, I'm my first question is is what is your threat? you know, right? Um, what are you trying to accomplish here? Um, there's a ton of marketing terms out there that, you know, from me personally, my opinion, drive me crazy. And that's anti- climb, anti- cut. Uh, that's what we see all the time. And, um, there's no fence out there that you can't climb. Let's get that. Let's go ahead and get that out of there. If you want to climb it, you can get over it. Uh, and there's no fence out there that you can't cut because if you want to spend the time to cut it, you're going to get through it eventually. Um, so you have to define what those terms are. Um, right now there's a couple different standards out there. There's 2781-15 and then you have LPS 1175 over over in the UK that that a lot of that we've tested to and a lot of a lot of our uh, you know, competition overseas has tested to. Um, so I'm always trying to find out what is what is your real threat and then do you have a response because if there is no response then you don't need a highsecurity fence a you know a cut a cut breach tested fence because if there's no response they're going to be inside by the time a response gets there anyways. So um so I start there. Um from our side of it, we got into the high security high security fence side of it out of bas kind of out of necessity of we were a barrier company. We were getting, you know, we're getting specified on a different a bunch of different ACP jobs and and entry control points for different facilities. But then some of the traditional fence companies out there got into the barrier world. well, to be able to to be able to offer the full solution, full package. And so we said, how do we how do we stay true to what we know and what we do, and that's okay, we're going to only kind of play in the breach tested, you know, breach certified uh playground of of fence systems. Um, we do offer some welded wire systems and some palisade style systems that aren't, but um, for the most part, we're trying to stay true to who Jibralter is on the high security side. Um, and that's kind of been our been my push and our culture is to to let's let's, you know, tow that line and and, you know, then we'll bring a we'll bring a partner in or another vendor in if we're going down to that,

You know, ornamental level or whatever. So yeah. Did you see that um pick up after um obviously after some of the stuff we had 911 and all that stuff? Do you think that kind of really picked up a lot of this barrier stuff? Oh yeah. 911 was the driver. Um it you know you talk if you talk to if you talk to um some of the guys that have been you know veterans in the industry talk to Jeff or Pete or some of the guys that were around back then you know Delta Delta Scientific and the soccer the oldest kind of the oldest barrier companies that are still still got a name out there. Um and and those guys those guys it was basically how fast can you get it in the ground after 9/11 and um you know they kind of those companies kind of set the set the tone for for where we are today because a lot of our designs and innovation that we've done has been off of you know those old legacy designs that okay this this worked but it wasn't great and how can we make it better and how can we make this more user friendly and and uh you know, through automation. Most of most of our designs here lately, we've been going to all electric. We've been getting away from hydraulics and um yeah, it's been it's been fun. Um it's you learn a lot. You learn what works and what doesn't work. And yeah, and um a lot of engineering time in it, but uh but yeah, those those companies kind of kind of paved the way for for where we're at today. So, how can somebody find more? Um I if somebody's listening and wants to go to a website or something and and see what we're talking about on here about the ballers, what would be the website address? Yeah, www.jalterperimetercurity.com. Um or www.jalterps.com. Um okay, that gets you to both of ours. Um there are some resource libraries there. Um got specs, drawings, all of that. Um, you will have to give some info to get the passwords, but um, you send some info in, we send you a password out, and you get access to it. So, okay. Yeah, it looks like Susan's got them in here already. Look. I I don't know where I don't know how she finds the time to do this. So, there you go. If you're watching, go go go to one of these websites, take a look at that stuff. Yeah. So, uh, Sash, you know a little bit about some of these uh, the high security stuff. You live in this world, too, right? Yeah. So I'm like I was going to ask Jo coming from you know Australasia and Europe you know those in my experience probably about like over 15 18 years ago you know Europe and all of those guys we we were already mcking around with anti- crash you know lift lifters not just bowlards um and stuff like that then coming over to the states I'm with you I feel like 911 was a big um really big push to go hey we need to take this technology and actually make it better and more effective and yeah user friendly. uh currently right now you know founders is in the high security we don't make it of course we we partner up with people like yourself but um we're seeing more and more data centers are going you know this is what we wanted to get into to explain to everyone you know M30 M50 K4 K12 you know the the the jarens have changed over the years yeah you know Canada's this Australia's this America's this but they generally mean the same thing you know an F-150 50 stops in three meters. M50, you know, you want to stop in a meter. Um, like for me, what has been the biggest How long have you been in it? I think that I've So, I'm I'm in my 12th year right now. So, I've been I've been I've been with Jialter 11 and a half years. So, um, I've seen I've seen a lot over over the last decade. So, yeah. So, if you I know there's a lot to pile into this podcast. So, could you sort of break down in simple as simply as you can like give us some differences between the main crash rated and crash tested? Um, Like M30 and M50. Are they the two most common I think out there that people throw? Can you give us a little bit about what really defines them? Yeah. Yeah. So, so M is M stands M the letter M in M30 or M50 means the same thing. It's medium duty truck. So, it's a 15,000lb 7 and a half ton flatbed. Uh, think of

Like a uh probably a truck you'd get from get a load of lumber from a lumber store or something like that. Uh, flatbeds loaded with it. Um, something of that size. Uh, Ford F750 size. Um, and so we're going to load that with some barrels uh to act like a payload explosive device or whatever. uh the weight of that total, you know, that total vehicle is going to be around 15,000 pounds plus or minus it per the spec for ASMF2656. Um the 30 is 30 mph. The 50 is 50 miles an hour. And then you have P ratings, which is P1, P2, and P3. Uh P1 is up to 1 meter of penetration, and that's to the leading edge of the bed of the truck. So um the reference point on the ballard like say a ballard for example if this is your post and this is your driving direction it's going to be one meter from the impact side of that ballard back for the leading edge of that truck if you if it goes over that line it's a P2 and that's going to be that's going to be 1.01 meters to seven meters of penetration. Um, do you understand? Do you understand me? Just just so you know, because Brian's no meters up. Oh, are we back to English? Are we back to English now? I can get I can get off numbers. But but yeah. Um, but yeah, that that's the that's kind of the you know, you have one one meter is P1, 1.01 101 to 7 is P2 and then anything over seven meters to uh I think it's seven meters sorry I should know this but I don't we don't do a lot of P3 stuff it's too we don't we consider that a failure um 7 meters up to like 90 meters is a P3 or 7 to 23 meters 90 feet is a P3 I remember it was like K12 K what happened to all that I mean I mean you remember that I mean why did they change all that yeah so so What happened was um the K ratings were were basically assigned under state department and so those were state department US department of state ratings and um they they ran kind of the lists the barrier lists up until uh 2007ish time frame and at that point DoD took over the barrier lists and ASM F2656-07 which is 2007 that was the standard Moving forward, um, State Department still did some design stuff to the K ratings. Uh, essentially a K a K12 was as close as you could get to an M50P1. A K8 would be an M40 P1 and then a K4 would be an M30P1. The State Department has since come out and done a lot of memos and basically said, stop using the K ratings because they're not relevant to the current standards. there. The specs on the trucks were different, the heights on the trucks were different, but the the only thing that really correlated was the mass and speed. And so, um, so they were they were in place from like 85 to the mid 2000s. And, um, yeah, they've they it just takes a long time for specs to get worn out and architects and engineers that are specking stuff to stop using the terminology. My best. But um yeah, and then you've got, you know, and Sasha should Sasha probably knows better than me on these, but you got pass, you got pass 68, which was replaced with ISO overseas, and then you got pass 170. Um, and then we also we also do a little ASMF 316 testing, which is surrogate vehicle low speed. So think of think of nos in parking at at convenience stores and stuff like that where you're going to have a pedal error and uh a low speed impact to them. So yeah. So what's um you know Sasha and we know by the way Sasha can barely remember anything past you know before 2024. So like the K ratings and stuff he probably can't remember yet. Yeah because nothing's important. So what's that? You know the anti- RAM and we hear that a lot. I mean I and you're right though those specs I remember Sash we remember reading stuff it was like I mean hell it was like 2015 you still see stuff that said K ratings on them right? It was it went on for a while and you don't see the stuff much anymore, but it it didn't just die out. That's for sure. It took a while. Architects are famous for copying and paste. Copy paste. Copy paste and uh and it just it just lives on once they get it in their it feels like in their clipboard. It just lives on for until that guy retires. Right. Right. And I think Joseph, it was really cool because today, you know, you brought up something that me and a client today were discussing was definitions of high security. I love I love because I said

To him, "I'm sorry, Palisades and High Security. It's just not." Um, so I really like what you said. It's not that we we're um belittling that. It's like no, like if we we're talking high security, like just know that it's a completely different when I say completely different, it's still a perimeter. It's still protect, but it's just different. It's I think that's where we need to as an industry. Okay, we're we're classifying high security and I I know I've been quoting a lot of data centers lately. So, it's like people are having sticker shock. Like I'm giving you a high security, you know, M30 rated gate. I'm sorry. It's not 10 grand. It's because it's like your brain is [ __ ] Hey, it's a palisade fence. It's a pal. No, that is not high security. It's got a what the you know I'm not going to give the secret out but you know that that nut at the back you just get a little chisel you don't even need to cut it just get you know so you're right and I think that's that education is really important so that people can start to understand hey if you do want to get in the high security game just understand what it really means and just stick shock I'm finding clients are having a bit I'm like well dude it's That's high security to stop vehicles and bigles. So yeah, I like what you said. I think that's we need to be educated on that because I think sometimes it's just gotten so mixed, but it's not. It's very different. Yeah. Yeah. As a manufacturer, I think the most eyeopening things is whenever you think you have a pretty stout fence and you put a team on it and they go right through it. You're like, whoa. You're like, oh, okay. Um, and I like when they put chain link in a security fence. Say, I want a security fence. And they go, just that chain link. I'm like, okay, you got to take the word security. It's just the fence. Come on. Yeah. I've seen I've seen a uh I think the red team I saw the video of was uh with Chain Link, it took a guy like 15 seconds to cut the hole and then eight of them were through by 31 seconds. It was like it was crazy. Um I actually I actually on the even on the 358, you know, the 358 mesh, uh when BRE came out and did some testing on our stuff, uh just seeing what a guy can do with a pocketk knife to a to a 358 welded wire mesh fence is pretty amazing. Uh yeah, because they can get pop. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, they get pop and they they take a hammer and they they'll just slice through it like butter and uh Yeah, it's pretty pretty wild. brand. It's like it's just wire and it's coming from, you know, Europe and Australia like where that where welder wire is such a popular everyday fence. People don't that's an everyday we don't classify that as high security. We just go we don't want chain links so we're putting welder wire like sort of it's a little step up securitywise but it's not it's not high security. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's I think if you look at the industry as a whole there's you know obviously I think I think Europe has quite a few players um and probably some of those are in Australia with it being a you know the relationship there uh but here here in the states there's only man I bet there's only less than a handful of like true like highsecurity fences that even Can I ask you why because in in a country that's so amazing so vast so big with so so much security type of operations. I think for me when I got into fencing in the states I was really shocked because there wasn't I didn't see that much you know like okay Vegas certain certain downtown areas you know they were very careful but even basic like security at a like a 7-Eleven like dude no wonder you flew through the the shop because you know some person you know I'm like that was very fring why why was that like Why why has that What What's your opinion being in the industry so long that it's taken to this point? Yeah, I Yeah, I um Yeah, I won't name any projects or anything, but I've had projects where they where they literally specify an M50 P1 Ballard. Like that's the spec. So that you know you know to spec that that's like a very like someone did a vector analysis and was like oh you have

You need to have this because that's a high that's almost the highest level that we offer and uh and um because of a price that you send them they go to basically non-rated you know 4in schedule 40 pipe filled with concrete and I'm like you do know there's like other levels there but uh but I think I think the the price I think shocks a lot of people. Um, yeah, you know, there's there's a lot of C like a like a a shallow mount or deep mount empard is heavy steel. It's it's a heavy weldment and it's uh it's not a you know it's not a cut piece of pipe and so um I think there's that. I think that also goes to the highsecurity fence side. I think you know some of these people get sticker shock. They say, "Oh, we want it to be able to stop a disc grinder and a chopsaw for five minutes." And I don't think they really realize what that means. Um, you know, to stop a chopsaw, you're going to need some sort of dual layer, whether it's mesh and and some sort of steel tubing or mesh and plate and tube and and more mesh or or whatever. So, um, because you're to to to make that delay, you've got to do multiple passes on the cut. And I'm sorry, but a chopsaw is going to cut through just about everything. Um, oxy acetylene torch, same thing. Um, you've got to have different layers on that fence to be able to withstand an oxy acetylene torch running to not have to do just one pass to get through. And so whenever you start adding all that steel in there, uh, it adds up quick. And, um, and and you know, and there's and you're, you know, and there's there's you're paying for, you know, it's an insurance policy, too. You know, whenever you're looking at the system on your on what you're putting in, there's no return on security. The return on security is that nothing got lost or stolen or that you didn't have an impact. And so, it's always the last thing I feel like to be put in or money be spent on or it's the first thing to be cut um whenever we're doing projects because there is you can't you can't put a value to it without there being like a loss. Um, and until there's a loss, you don't have that value. So, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. You know what's funny, Sash? um is you're talking about the high security and the fencing and stuff is uh we do a lot obviously at Las Vegas fence high security when we call it high security but it's a commercial and and industrial fence and everybody when we go out there and we're doing the bid and we're talking to them we're already at like it's chain link like you said we're talking and that's what everybody thinks is like it's the first thing they go to is they start thinking chain link with barb wire and razor ribbon and you're already like you got this eight foot tall fence and they want barbwire and razor ribbon on for security and then they're like you know what we want to go really secure so let's go taller and I remember I had this conversation all the time and I'm like, "Look, you're already at 8 foot with barb wire and razor wire. They're not going over it now, right? They're going through it. Anything over six foot, you're done, man. They're I mean, it's not like a fence in your front yard at 4 foot tall where you're jumping, right? You're at you're over six foot tall with bar boy and razor ribbon. They're going to cut through it. So, it takes me a little while and I always end up convincing them, look, what you really need to do is beef up your go take your chain link from that 11 gauge to nine gauge or mini mesh or something. That's where you got to invest your money in because I would take a six or seven foot foot tall fence or even eight foot tall fence with nine gauge or or you know smaller mesh than a 15 foot tall fence with barb wire and razor ribbon. And I have that conversation. I must have had that a million times over the years with people and yet for some reason in their head they think if they see a 15 foot tall fence with barb wire on top of it and razor wire that they have the most secure fence on the property. Right. You I tell I tell everyone how does a how does a fox or a rabbit get inside your building? He just digs under your fence. It's gonna be the bottom. Yeah. Bottom five feet of that fence is the is the weak point. So I think Well, that being said, you know, u we were just talking about it a second ago.

You know, you go and you spend all this money on these ballards or these anti- barrier stuff at the at the driveways and things like this. What do you do when you're trying to protect the property against pedestrians, people, and vehicles? You know, I mean, how do you how do you how do you get that synergy to where you've got a property to secure? What would you do if you got called out and somebody said, "Look, I want to make a secure property because what's the point of having M M50 rated uh crash barriers in front if you can just drive through the fence that's three feet over from it?" Right. So, what do you do to combine that? Is there cabling? Is there something you can think of that off top of your head? Yeah. Yeah. So, we have we have a bunch of different products. We have we have five different crash tested perimeter systems. Think perimeter fence. Uh ours are beam based. We went away from cable. We we we we used to have cable systems and we we sold those off. Um and uh um all of our all of ours are beam based. There's there's there's pros and cons to both. Um I'm sorry. I thought you said bean based at first. I'm like, "No, beam. Steel beam." It took me a second to process that. I'm like, "Man, you've got to send me some pictures of this." Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, there's actually some of this there's there's a hybrid of this system out actually outside of T-Mobile Arena there in Vegas where we had to protect over a drainage cover and, uh, we took some of our post and beam design and and kind of embedded it into a hybrid with the ballage there. Um, but yeah, we're just using a steel beam and we and it's basically an erector set and so we can funnel down to a gate or on a ACP or we can uh integrate it into the back side of the fence line on the uh on the on the fence as well. The the you know a cable system can integrate into the system a lot cleaner. Uh but there's there's weaknesses to cable that a steel beam doesn't doesn't have and that's that a cable can be cut very very easily at the fence. Um whereas a beam you're going to have to take that chopsaw or oxytor torch and really cut for a little while. Um and so um from our stance we went to that route. Uh the labor was the labor savings on install was quite a bit less than a traditional cable system and that's why we went that route um when we designed it. Um with steel going up, you know, material costs, you know, sometimes they're up here for cable, sometimes they're down here and back and forth. But um but yeah, there's there's a number of systems out there. I think for for the site, you really have to you really have to ask the questions is, you know, at your at your gate points, are are there pedestrians coming through those gates or is it just vehicles only? Um, because that's going to tell you if you need if you can use a wedge or a drop arm or a slide gate. Uh, or do you need to have active ballards and and because pedestrians will be walking through there. Um, that's that's probably the biggest question there to get that out of the way and then you can really start to look at the perimeter and how you're going to tie that into that gate and what what that gate final gate solution is going to look like. Um, the the other thing that that you have to ask whenever you're talking highse security fences is what are the grades? Um, changing grades changes things a lot for crash rated systems and and even on the even on some of the the more fixed highsecurity systems where we're we're building pre-building panels. Um, we need to know, you know, are we going to stair step it or are we going to follow grade, you know, that type of question, those type of questions. Um, because some of these systems that are that are that are heavy aren't aren't rackable, you know, and so uh if you can't rack it, you got to you got to you got to plan for that. And uh and that's where we've seen some people get in trouble in the past is they assume, oh, I'm going to rack this solid panel. Like, no, you don't understand. This is a 700 pound fence panel that you're not racking. So, um so yeah, it's uh there's a lot of questions that go into it. And I think, you know, I think it's intimidating for some of these contractors until they get into our shop. You know, we we do trainings at our facility and you they sit down and and you go through the drawings and go through the CADs with them and and go through and get their hands on it. That's why I like to bring panels to the shows

Is they can get a hand on it and see, okay, this is this is way heavier than what it looks like on paper and um but I think it gives them more comfort in seeing it there and and and feeling it and and handling it. So, and Joseph, I love this one. I want an M50 fence, but I just want a standard gate. I'm like, spend all your money at your gate. That's your weakest point. It's like I feel like these conversations are really good because I think as an ex, you know, running an ex uh an ex contractor. It's like they're they're not that daunting if you just understand, hey, what's out there? Options. It's like, okay, if you don't want to spend 200 grand on a gate cuz people stick a shock, but this gate has to take the impact of a truck. So, it's not going to be $10, then you got popup ballards, you got pop up hydraulics, you know. Yeah, but I can't believe you're not going to spend money in your gate, but the rest of the fence you just spend a million dollars on, but I'm just going to walk through your gate, you know? Right. That's the education part that I think if we can educate contractors, educate their clients, you know, then it's sort of makes sense and they can look at it because like you know, fencing's the last. Everyone thinks, "Ah, who cares? Just the fence. It's the end of the job, got no money, cut it in half." And I'm like, "Well, then you're getting chain, right? What do you want?" Oh, yeah. That's happened all the time. And they're like it was built originally was drawn out with iron and everything done and then then it went to like halfway through the project being built it went to black chain link and then it went to like just chain link and then it's like you know what we're just going to do the gates.

Yeah. Yeah. I would um you know we've we've done a lot of projects around you know stadiums and arenas and stuff and and we've been able to work with a lot of those end users to uh I think a lot of people think they have to bite it all off at once and that's not the case. You don't have to bite it all off at once. Get your most vulnerable areas taken care of first and phase them and do a different phase every other year or every year until you have that thing secure. Um, and um, you know, I I I see it both ways on the on the gate and fence scenario. I've seen it where it's a crash gate and then, you know, 10 feet off the side of the gate is wide open, you know. Um and and uh um so I think it's you know I think in any scenario where you have a runup to a gate, you've got to have the vector analysis and say, "Okay, what can a vehicle actually get out to off of this angle uh of roadway and you you've got to plan to at least protect that area." And I think a lot of people think, okay, they're just going to run straight in. Uh I think out in Vegas actually uh maybe it was Vegas or Henderson or somewhere somebody ran through the fence at one of the substations out there like in last year where they just blew right by the gate like the gate was right here and they blew right through the fence by it. It feels like we had a bunch of that going on and people were like a couple of times they went through some bus stops so they started putting ballards there. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that started with all now they've been uh slowly replacing all the bus stops with um entire you know crash rated bus stops at this point. Yeah. And that's those are popping up. I mean I mean I wouldn't be surprised if all those would be done pretty soon. And then I'm sure you guys might even got involved in some of those the ballers they got going. So then then we had that um where somebody drove through some stuff on the strip and uh you know killed some people. So then more ballers went in there. It's like they just keep going adding adding adding. But um yeah, and then on the high security, obviously with the fence next to it, we're talking about how long can they cut through. And I like that you kind of explained what high security was. It really comes down to how long it takes to cut through and uh you know, and get to it. I feel like you guys spend a lot of time, like you were saying, uh with people saying I could get through it, like how long is it going to take to cut through that? I feel like that that's a conversation's a lot going on your office, you know. Yeah. Yeah. There's um yeah, we're actually uh we're always we're at some we're always R&D at at any given time. Um and so we've got at the show that at this show we'll have one of our newer products out. Uh we've only shown it once uh since it's been released. So this will be the second time to show it. U first time was out at ISC, but u uh it's our LPS 1175 SR2 or B3 uh welded wire. um which is a beefy it's a beefy wire. Um and so um we'll have that there, but we're also in the process of of testing another 2781 that'll do a A5 rating, which is aggressive threat, five minute delay, um with a with chopsaw, oxytor torch, and all that. So, I feel like Thanksgiving at Joseph House would be like the turkey would come out and they'd be like, "No, that's still too easy to cut. Send that back to the oven for another hour or two. You went straight through that with a knife. That's unacceptable." Yeah. Unacceptable. Yeah. If if a ve if a vehicle can like go through it or a knife goes through it, we're not we're not accepting it. we can't have that. Jo, so let me ask you this. So, there are more and more contractors um that are trying to get into high security, right? Can you give them any sort if you if they're interested in doing it? Is there any suggestions you can have besides of course reaching out to you to Jabala yourself and the team? Is there anything um that you could suggest to them to say, "Hey, it's not it's not as daunting as you think." Or what do you think? Yeah. Um yeah, I I I think you just have to I mean, they need to do their research on it and and understand that it's not a chain link fence. Um you're not, you know, you're not running a roll and and cutting wire and and all that. So, um it's a a a lot more labor

Intensive. I think a lot of guys probably don't realize the labor that goes into it to to erect one. Um, but the uh but the the big thing is there there's quite a few manufacturers out there that have different systems is learning them and and and going and doing their trainings and and really just learning those systems because I think I think once they once they got down to it at the end of the day it's concrete and steel and that's what they're that's what they're playing with all the time anyways. Uh the one thing I would say like if they're if they're looking at getting into like the barrier side of it, the active barrier side of it is really getting teams trained on on they need to have they need to have a PLC programmer like they need to be able to have that capability. And I think a lot of them uh because they're gate operator trained, they think it's the same thing and it's not. Um integrating a full barrier system is a lot different than integrating a slide gate into a into a site. And um same with active ballers. Brian, I'm I'm seeing a new course developing with Joseph in FWA, right? I see I see it out. You see that development? But I got here's one we really need to work on is I know you've got all the you know all these crash ratings down. I mean I I feel like you know them forward and backwards and you dream about this stuff. But um Sasha is going to be giving away one of these things at the show in Las Vegas. So what crash rating? I don't even know if they have one that big. What craft grading do they have with this bad boy loaded down with 68 fencers all holding a beer? Do you have anything you have anything at the show that's going to stop these guys when they get when they get cranking down that center aisle? No, it's a negative rating. I apologize in advance. The wheels will fall off, but at the moment it looks good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Our our new uh our new S20 ground lock would would definitely stop that. There you go. Is that S for Sasha? You got a Sasha on that one. So, just quickly, I just want to say thank you to um FWA, Brian, your team. Um it was a group effort to put this thing together. I'm going to be I'm going to say out there, I think it's one of the biggest giveaways in any fence show that I've ever been to. Um and thanks to you and your team, also Fortress, um who we do a lot of work with together. Um, you know, we've been able to put something together for for the contractors. This is just for fence contractors. So, Joseph, you cannot put a ticket in. Oh, man. So, yeah, we're just we just want to say thank you to everyone, I think, as a group. Um, and so we're just telling everyone, come to our booth, get a raffle, throw it in there, and the the we you have to be present to win it. It will be at the show and um we're going to draw it Thursday afternoon between 1 and two round about there. But you have to be present to win it. Yep. And if you don't care if you win it or not, just write my name on the ticket and submit it in. No, I don't even know if that's how that works. Sasha, what's the deal on this? How are they going to They got to come to come to your booth, I'm assuming, and uh spend a couple minutes with me. They got to come to the show. You got to come to the show, enjoy the show, make sure you check out Joseph, support the show, and then Yes, you'll come to our booth, uh, Founders Booth 519. I believe that's our booth. Don't quote me on it. I'm I'm pretty backwards at the moment. Yeah. And Elelliana will you'll see her and she will give you a ticket. You'll put your information in and then we'll draw it on Thursday afternoon. That's awesome. And hey, thank you for doing that, Sasha. I know it's a big deal. you've always been a huge supporter of um everything we're doing here with FWA and our shows and stuff. So um if everybody remembers you from last year, remember that right in the center you man you brought in that massive massive bar um that was ended up being almost I might have a problem a slight problem me and Brett my business partner with this one is going to be even bigger than last year again thanks to you guys for the support. So, we have got a couple of things up our sleeve and yes, there will be a bar and there will be some other stuff going on in that booth. Yes. So, I've been to your facility in California and I've been to your booth

At um you know at the fence show. Um and I've actually been out to where you've been racing. So, do you have like a mobile liquor license or something? Is that uh is that what's going on? Yeah. You know what's cool about fencing guys? We ask for forgiveness later. It's like I needed that. What's that for? I don't know. A no comment. That's awesome. So, I'm thinking you know what that means? Rapid fire question time. So, I never read these first. I know. Uh we could Sasha, I don't know if you cheat and read these things in advance, but probably a little bit. Yeah. But try to time, you know. So, we got some questions lined up. Um, and hopefully a lot of times we answer we asked these questions and they were kind of answered like in the uh, you know, interview and we were talking in the podcast, but um, so it's kind of cool because somebody listening along is like, "Hey, I already know what he's going to say." And, uh, so it's kind of cool. But I'll start off. Uh, rapid fire question, Joseph, for you. Uh, straight fence run or complicated gate installation? Complicated gate installation. Challenge. Yeah. Yeah. I like So I like I like things that are I don't want to give away our secrets. So um we like the things that no one else wants to touch. So that's that's how we that's how we operate. Where are we getting these special effects from? What's happening? What's happened? Susan doesn't like me to use those. All right. Here's one for you, Joseph. What's the one tool you'll never want to be without on a job site? Oo. Oh man. Um, because so many of our barriers use them, I would say a hex head. A quarter inch hex head. That's not an everyday necessarily. Yo, I love it. All right. What's the most memorable thing you've ever seen? I know you've been part of these crash tests. What's the most memorable thing you've ever seen in a crash test? Something that sticks out in your head that you just you just remember every time we think of crash tests. Uh failures. The failures are great. Um it cost a lot of money, but they're great. Uh we launched we launched a truck and I think Jeff actually used it in the in one of the ratings courses last year, the year before. Uh we had an M50 Ballard design that we were trying to do and it was a complete failure and rolled the truck launched and I think the truck flew I think the truck flew like 60 feet. Like you could have stood like you know how whenever you're like oh the ballard failed so it' run over whoever's behind it. You could have stood five feet behind the ballard and been perfectly fine because the truck would have missed you and landed like 50. That's the guy's dream. That's like it's like something in a movie like in Transformers where all of a sudden in slow motion it like goes over the car flips or something over top of you and you're like And so so whenever So to tie that into to what we were talking about earlier, he uses that video uh to say okay what's a what's a certified ballard? And he says that's a certified ballard because it does have a cert. It's just not a usable. And so, uh, so it opens kind of makes people think about, okay, you got to actually look at what what that certification actually is. No, that's so true. What do you got? You up or I'm up? You're up, man. Okay, here's here's I don't know about this one. I think this one's easy to answer, Joseph, but I'll let you decide that. Who would have the best poker face during a crash test, Brian or myself? Like if you're standing behind the uh the units, if you're the crash test dummy standing behind it, it doesn't matter. You're in the driver's seat. You're in the driver's seat. I think uh you know, I don't know, but with with Sasha and his bar and all that, I think he might have the better face for it. I don't know. Thank you. I agree. And you see that's I like this guy a lot. Okay, last one. Last one. So, um, while you're out and about, you're just running around, driving around, or out

On a job site somewhere. Um, what's a fence, uh, or a crash barrier that you spotted that you just had to stop, take a second, and go over and look at? I would say, so twice this has actually happened where I've looked at things. Um, the first time I went to DC, uh, Nasaka has barriers everywhere up there. All those wedges are Naka barriers. And so I was like, "Oh, I got to go like see one of these in the wild." And so that was one. And uh the other was is a company that does uh Sasha probably knows them, uh Meridian. Uh they do a lot of the a lot of the portable stuff for around stadiums and all that. And I've I've I've stopped and looked at their stuff whenever it's been deployed. So uh yeah, those would be the two that I've that I've stopped and looked at that weren't our own that I drove to. We're all guilty of that. We're all guilty of that. we see something as we're driving around and we just got to stop for a minute. I mean, maybe we're at Disneyland. Maybe we're somewhere and it's like people are like people have already they've already went like 30 feet ahead of us and we're just back there for a second looking and taking a picture or something. So, uh we're all guilty of that. But hey, you guys, that kind of wraps it up, you know. Uh, Joseph, thanks man for taking us in a little deeper behind just an average fence and uh, kind of filling a lot of us in on the crash ratings and um, it's been fun and hearing a little bit about high security and what you know what what what what it what what it really involves in that and telling people how they can get a little bit more involved in high security and hopefully it answers some questions and I'm sure you're going to be available you guys will be available during the fence show if you guys are there stop by the Jialtra booth um, and you know say hi and see what they've got. They're going to bring some samples. He always got a pretty cool looking booth and products and samples for you guys to touch. So again, thank you for always being there for us at the fence show. Sasha, I can't thank you enough either and thanks for bringing this bad boy to the show. We're all looking forward to it. I'm going to make sure that battery is disconnected. But uh the funny I think there I think there's too many tools in that show to to disconnect it. You're gonna have to like take the battery out. He'll figure it out. I think he's gonna bring a battery behind his bar and plug it in or something, right? Yeah, you guys in uh go to fencow.com, get registered. I believe tomorrow is the last day the room block and we've been just barely limping that thing along. It keeps filling up one day and you can't get a room for the whole week, things like this. And we keep calling the hotel saying we, you know, the the hotel's filling up. So, there's thousands of room nights booked and um I think we've managed to limp it along maybe for the next 24 hours. Um it's it's pretty much going to be done tomorrow and we won't be able to extend it anymore. So, if you don't have your hotel room, it's going to be the same room you're going to pay more for later. You might as well book it now. Go to fento.com, hit the hotel room uh link and uh also get registered for the show while you can. Uh next week is five minutes with Brian. I don't know where that title came with or came from. I think uh somebody made it up, but it's five minutes with Brian. Our final episode before the fence show and before we all the worst five minutes of your life, but you do. I love it. I love it. I love it because I don't even see who's coming on and there's always a bunch of people in the back and she pulls them on and we get to talk for, you know, a few minutes and stuff. So, uh, that's next week. Uh, Sasha, I know you'll be back, Joseph. I will see you in a couple weeks. Um, over at the show. Everybody's tuning in. Thanks. Uh, same time, same bat channel next week. Uh, Thursday 3:00. We will see you guys. Thanks again, everyone.

I'm going full throttle.

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