Tariffs at the Gate: What’s Really Behind Your Fence Price Spike?

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Sash what's going on man I was rocking out to be a red guy then I liked it I know we got Wednesday March 5th man I we we didn't go live last uh last week I think we played a recap of something else but uh I saw you last week yes sir you did I'm surprised you didn't go live but you're a pretty busy man last week I did a lot of recordings and stuff but it was rough man uh we were fence Tech man it was a fence Tech week man it was just everywhere you went there was somebody else you knew and you were just kind of bouncing in I know I spent a lot of time in your booth though it's a fun Booth we try to have fun in our shows you know in our booth it's all about uh connecting with everyone but have a good time at the same time you know yeah who blows all them balloons up man dude definitely is not me let me tell you now 100% my lives cannot take that capacity y you got like a balloon person yep and the beer was flowing the beer was flowing so thanks for that beer man y that's what we're good at hey but you know um by the way introduce yourself I mean I I feel like everybody knows who you are we've had you on a few times uh you know I'm I'm Brian with uh Fence Show and security Expo uh my fence life fence you know fence University and so on but tell us a little bit about Sasha so those you don't know me um you can tell my accents from the deep south of Alabama um outside of that you know GM at the Riverside location for lime fence and steel supply and we specialize in Iron products um panels welder wire temp fencing that's really our baby um that we focus on here yep yeah michaa if you don't know her she says hey what's up doing M she's awesome but um anyway today I want to talk about something more serious though you know I we do a lot of you and I do I mean if anybody knew us well you'd know you and I do a lot of joking around man I say 90% of what we talk about is just joking and having a good time but um let's talk about tariffs man what's uh you know I mean it's it's it's a subject that is coming up almost if you go on any social media feeds you talk to anybody everybody's nervous we're you know and maybe we're nervous because we're having flashbacks of uh 2021 so maybe we're not and you're not being paranoid if it feels like everybody's actually out to get you yeah so tell me a little bit how's this ter you you have a pretty big Insight on the terorist because you are what I like to call a hybrid model of uh manufacturer uh distributor and you know that that area so you deal with tariffs on a regular basis tell us all what tariffs really is and how it affects you um as a manufacturer bringing products into the US so look at the moment nobody really knows right so we know that there was tffs place which we were all facing they're in effect as of Tuesday the last round um we had a first round for anyone that's importing anything out of um um China es especially did I lose you Brian did I get off you know we can we can we can hear you but we can't see you so it looks like we lost your video what happened there I'm not complaining I'm not complain look at that a second your video went down we got like two or three more viewers that's weird yeah what's up with the video Let's up look so um yeah so I mean for everybody that's listening though um the reason I did this was because uh I wanted to have a discussion about tariffs um and it's a big deal for our industry we all follow the the pricing and I think we've all gotten um if anybody that's buying from any of the Distributors you know um probably one of the national ones you probably already got some notices saying that there's either price increases already happened or um it's going to happen soon so I got that as well and um I see some of the stuff uh Sasha and some of the groups and stuff where people are saying hey I don't think this is fair why am I getting an increase you're still selling the materials that are in your yard right now and um I probably have a different take on that um I look at it like well I think the increases are going to happen because they you know if you have a certain amount of product you can't just sell everything you have and while Sasha is fixing this I'll kind of continue on um you can't just sell everything you have in your yard and then um replace it at a higher cost without um having without having you know having that affect your bank account so um I look at it like this if you had a roller chain link in your yard that cost you $100 and you're going to sell it for

$15 um and then you're going to replace it with another roll of wire that costs you $100 you have $15 more dollars in your bank um so if uh the tariffs come into play and it's going to cost you um I'm I'm just explaining some people about the you know tariffs how would affects us even as someone that's selling materials at our level but if I have that same rule of wire at $100 and I'm going to sell it at $15 and it's going to cost me $125 to replace it all I do is have less dollars in the bank and the same roll of wire so that's only if I was planning on replacing that inventory to again over resell it again so um if you're planning to going out of business and just selling your inventory then the tariffs probably wouldn't affect you if you're not planning on purchasing anything new then you could sell the cheaper cost so um I I think that in my opinion I think that's how kind of how it works so that same roll of wire that you would sell for 115 to make 15 you now have to sell for 140 you know to uh to make the same $15 if you're planning on replacing the wire so um anyway so now that you're back tell us uh how that tariffs affect you guys so the the short of it is exactly what you said right the basics of the tariffs um replacement costs right if you keep it really simple the issue at the moment is the first round of tariffs that was placed on you know Mexico Canada then that was put back a month you know China got the hit at 10% um that's stuck and the issue is then there was another 10% then there was the 25% and now there's this uncertainty is it coming is it going are they going to take it off so at this very moment the tariffs are in place but no one's really sure if they're in place for good so just today there was uh news that the auto industry was not going to get the tariffs put on them um just for another month because it's it's created yeah you're right it's created that PSD for or whatever that word is from the co time so yeah we we're all don't know what to do it's here it's come um any fencing installers out there you know you've received letters from from Distributors right now saying hey you know we're lifting up um due to replacement costs um so it's just so uncertain um that Sam right here says the biggest issue is not knowing what's coming next kind of what you're saying the uncertainty so that kind of backs up what you were in the middle of saying yeah yeah and and the thing too is I'm anx I come from you know with me no pun intended both sides of the fence I'm not just a just year actually first came out of the install side so it's really hard when you're bidding jobs and you bid the job at this price and then you're ringing me all the time saying sash where am I do I do I'm like well hey currently this is where you should be prepared for y but what happens if it comes off like what do we do with suppliers right so it's just there's just so un so much uncertainty at the moment and I really feel for the install side make sure you're really working with good vendors that actually know what's going on and how to navigate and help you navigate so going back to your first um point then you know the camera turned off um probably because I shouldn't say what I'm going to say no but the truth is this there's material on the ground that's cost pre- tariff right bang like you said then there's the new cost of my new orders coming in right so replacement cost we call it what do I sell it at as a distributor and I think that's the gray line that I feel for the in stallers right because what do I tell you right now on the ground I might have 100 uh 6 foot commercial panels yeah they're gone the new cost is 20% more so it's it's it's a real Balancing Act um and in the end I don't have the perfect answer because this is so uncertain there's just no idea because the writing of the tariffs they're very ambiguous like hey it's in Tuesday they're all in effect southeast Asia Canada Mexico and China got 10% the question is okay that's the import side what happened domestically like what's going on in the domestic Market the tariffs were always there though I mean they weren't it's not like when we say a 25% tariff is that 25% on top of what tariffs were already there because I mean there was always a tariff there though I mean we we always had this tariff a little didn't you always have them when you're bring this up

Whether it's 10% or whatever ever it is so when we say there's a 25% tariff on steel is that 25% on top of what you were already paying yes is that actually 35% whatever yeah so when we got those first rounded tariffs back in I think it was 18 somewhere around there whenever it was 1819 somewhere there they stuck and we knew what was going to happen there was no sort of uncertainty it was like Hey we're putting 25% on Imports coming out of China and it was there so everyone knew okay those people that were importing you okay this is it when this stock comes in the replacement cost is this today it's a little different because it's not so clearcut yeah it was clearcut that this is going on but then the reaction of the markets have had a plan well maybe we went too far maybe we didn't in the end what does that mean for us I call myself a dumb fencing guy what does that mean for me it's r uncertain right like I've got bids going out you got a bid that's going out that's not going to go let's say land for 2 months you really need to put escalation Clauses in your contracts you know and I've got a lot of people that have been talking to that are nervous because like well do we bid at at today's market I'm like yeah with escalation Clauses to protect you because all the gc's all of our clients know that the tariffs are here yeah but if you don't protect yourself as an installer you know our industry Bri better than anyone yeah they're going to go well that's your price no no no no it's not your price and these people have to understand these are government tariffs these are not just oh it's a tariff no this is a government tariff so there's no ways around it if they stick it it's here it's there's nothing you can do about it and in my case I have clients that have pre-ordered jobs let's say December right our lead times are probably if we're doing projects whatever it is from overseas on the water if it didn't land prior to Tuesday I've got another hit and it's just without even knowing yeah oh so so it's not even stuff in transit I mean it's not even stuff that's already here it's stuff that could be in transit already built and and you've already paid for it it's sitting there and all a sudden bam you've got another whatever $10,000 bill or something ridiculous so what what from what we understand the T the moment is anything that landed prior to Tuesday depends from what country it came from now right so if it came from China got another 10% hit if it came from Canada there's 25% if it came from Mexico and then like so it's when it lands at Port the date it actually lands and gets off the ship is the day the Tariff will back date so if you got everything off the ships on the port prior to Tuesday then there's no tariff so are you guys with tug boats just tuing these two boats but unfortunately they both sunk so trying to trying to tug that that that Freight Line back to the to the shore but you know what and that's interesting I wasn't aware of that I I assume that if it was a 25% tariff that would be total I didn't I didn't realize that was on top of whatever tariffs we were already paying um for the products coming in so that's uh you know we could end up with a you know a larger increase but I I I'm one of those Believers that put it in your bid I like your escalation Clause I don't I think we I think I'm going to circle back on the escalation Clause with um a lot of the members and stuff as well and even on here and maybe we need to have a whole discussion about making sure we need to come up with a simple sentence escalation clause sentence that we can all start putting inside of our quotes I think the maybe the Distributors and stuff maybe when uh we start sending out quotes or manufacturers we should start sending out something saying hey you may want to consider adding this to your you know this this Clause to your quote maybe we got have a whole campaign and just get that out there but you know one thing I've noticed though if and again I'm I'm just noticing back from past experiences back during the Co in 2021 when they we all had that that that Spike where everything went up obviously it took a lot longer to come down than it it took to go up but um when we did that and and I think the main purpose is because we're trying to make our domestic products uh more competitive with the import products and I mean I that's T typically the the premise behind this you know why they're doing it not just have a trade War but there's a trade War happen and China says

They're gonna they're going to fight to the end with this trade War but you know from what I was reading today uh you know in some of the articles but wouldn't wouldn't if with all this 25 50% increases like right now normally when everything's stable everything's going on typically domestic goods are not more than 20% 25% more than import right so it's just uh if I was to to bid it on a project so if if the Imports went up 25 30 40% then why isn't domestic why isn't the domestic always say you know at this point stay cheaper right why is domestic going to go up and increase above well our F to answer that question Jude my you know POS so that's a good question look we've had this debate Co was a good example of well actually 2018 was a great example of the domestic market right right um the import and it's just China import for now at that period got a 25% increase so for all your fencing people out there you know you you schedule 40 lg20 you know your lg15 all your pipe all your chain link all the Strand got a big hit and what happened in the domestic Market Brian like we all know the domestic Market went up yeah so why yeah yeah so a lot of people you know will say oh the domestic Market's gredy look there's money and everything but when you look at what happened and it's happening again the domestic Market can only have so much capacity there's only so much that they can produce so when you get a spike like this what does happens people are Panic buying they're going now you know what I don't want import I'm going I'm going to go straight over to the domestic market and I'm going to I'm going to buy domestic pipe here's the problem they can only produce so much at the moment they've got coils that they've planned for and they can only do what they can do when they're producing it so what happens domestically there's a massive Supply there's a massive supply chain issue because demand is here and Supply is here so they can't get to this demand so what happens is they lift their prices up because they just can't they cannot produce the products quick enough now people say that's greed in business yeah there's money that everybody wants to make that's point one but point two is they just can't afford they cannot produce it so it doesn't matter whether they give it to you for one cent or $2 they just can't produce it enough so and everything becomes expensive even for them to purchase so you don't you don't think that we've been kind of talking about this we didn't kind of know so they just do you think they just didn't ramp up production because they why do that why ramp up production so you can just work harder to sell uh more materials when you could just sell them materials you have that you're going to produce at a normal Pace at a higher price is that what it is I mean I mean isn't this what they've always dreamt of I mean if you had a business that was producing a product and you've now got a demand for it um and now you're trying to push people back into import products it's it doesn't make much sense to me I mean no it's and I feel look there's a bit of that Brian for sure just you know there is a bit but you can't Supply the product quick enough so the other part that people don't understand is if you can't produce a product quick enough what are you going to do like they have to rank because they're now doing like just imagine the Mills at the moment they going to do 24 hour shifts that cost money they're have to try and organize coils and the coils now are expensive I got because they're not all getting domestic coil they're getting import coil you know so there's a lot of the supply chain is the real breakdown so I believe there's a bit of greed there don't get me wrong but really when you look at it and I think people don't understand that when you look at manufacturing once that supply chain breaks it's a mess because even domestically what am I going to do I cannot produce enough uh pipe for your chain link fans and your post I've got to say selectively choose well not choose but I end up selectively having to sell to certain people that okay I can't just sell a bundle because I barely have a bundle I need to sell a truck yeah so I just it just bogs the chain the supply chain down with therefore increases the prices because everything's so expensive to make it is costing them more I mean so it's just because they're selling more um we want to think well you would think naturally that like anything else if I had a

Project that had 10,000 ft of fence opposed to 100 fet of fence I the more footage I get the cheaper I can sell per foot that fence for but um it feels like with our materials the more materials I want the more expensive it's getting so and for us in the fence industry maybe on our side it's like the larger project we're expecting the better price and if I remember back um even during the co stuff when you called up and tried to get a truckload of stuff it was it was actually more than if you were to just get a a you know a few rolls of wire so um it's just for us at our end and I'm just talking to you now as uh you know a a distributor SL you know manufacturer I think we get frustrated with that you know why you know why why why is it now that we're trying to buy more and more domestic that we're going to get charged you know even more than when we were buying a smaller amount and it doesn't seem like it's almost like almost like see it seems like it was premeditated to raise the price up on us it feels like to us as you know and I'm talking to you now as a fence company owner and we remember what it was like in 2021 when everybody was reaching out and to me as well you know because through the association and and they couldn't get supplies they it felt like all the you know suppliers Gates were locked and they couldn't get new accounts and they couldn't get supplies so I think people are paranoid of that happening again if there's some sort of shortage in materials um you think do do you think something like that could happen again I mean we all remember it uh especially the smaller fence companies uh some of them were almost borderline taken out they were selling jobs they couldn't actually start because they couldn't get materials do you think something like that could happen again or they just going to have to bid stuff higher oh it's going to happen look these tariffs are going to cause the same issue I don't necessarily think it's going to be as bad as as that as that Co period but yeah of course it is because the the fact is while we turn to the domestic Market they're not ready for this Spike and that's the issue the issue is you can't just go firing up Mills left and right it's not like starting your truck right it's a lot of work get Mills going get production going get all get these things moving and the cost to to to mass produce is very expensive so yeah I 100% it's going to happen because there's no other op the these the tariffs are going to do what the tariffs do normally right it it it pushes people so when you look at the domestic Market you got to remember it from a really like micro point of view that everybody now so everyone was happy buying you know you I know clients that love import I know clients that only want domestic but there was enough to go around and Supply whoever needed whatever they wanted whether it was import or whether it was domestic as all of these import people now turn around and go dude I need domestic well you can't sustain that because the Mills can only produce X and remember to they're not just running inch and 78 24/7 they're running inch and 78 one night they're running inch and 58 the next night they're running you know 2 in 3 in 4 inch F they're not we don't just have this Millet magic oh it pops out inch and sevens and then the next run pops out inch and Fs it doesn't work like that they have to run these in bulk so they'll run one night they'll run the inch of one week or one couple of days and running inch and seven8 and then tomorrow they're going to run inch and two you know two and 38 so what happens when there's a demand like this you've got people with deeper Pockets going out buying up and the Mill's not even ready to run engine eight for another week so it's not that simple like the meal process I think sometimes we understand that process is not that simple do you think that that um some of the larger distributors or something or larger manufacturers or places like that would deliberately go in and I mean keep I have no idea I'm just speaking out of my my my mouth right now for I have no idea nothing to back up what I'm saying but do you think that it could be um it could ever happen where one of the larger distributors or manufacturers I buys up all the one in 78 pipe and just so they can control part of the market and then that helps Drive the cost up or is it they does the does the people producing and rolling the pipe or whatever do they do a pretty good job at Distributing it out equally to the country so that everybody gets supplied no comment so okay no so look

So look no it's it's not perfect system right yeah so you can't I can't go bashing a domes Market even though I'm an importer right because the systems not perfect um you know ultimately when you're running a company and and look you're an install company you've got certain clients in certain gc's you know hey they pay really good I love working for them and I got certain other GCS that don't pay that you're like ah so when you're busy let me flip it a little bit when you're busy do you necessarily want to work for that GC that's like you know that's holding on to your money waving the Hat you know so the same in the supply on the on the domestic side right there is too much demand and not enough product so the natural behavior of that is I feel like the natural behavior in any business is you start to pick and choose your battles you start to pick and choose who necessarily you work with and etc etc so not necessarily do the big boys just buy the product to hold it it's just the natural progression is well we don't have enough product on the ground who am I going to supply I'm going to supply my best customer that takes care of me right and it might happen to be that big boy and but I have to make a choice because this is all I've got it's business it's business it's capitalist I get it yeah yeah we can't we can't complain about the very same business that allows you know the very same system allows us to be in business and but it's hard in a supply chain this is what people don't understand once you're out of that product you're out like it's not that simple in the supply chain that um you know oh dude I can produce this by the no once I'm out I'm out I don't know what I'm going to do next and I you know that cover per is a big eye opener domestically because you know these guys would produce I'm just us engine 78 schedule 40 right yeah they run that then they go to the two and three eights they run that they sell out and now it's 6 to 8 to 10 to 12 weeks before the coils you know what I mean so yeah hey explained to everybody um and and how a tariff works exactly I mean I think that a lot of people we have no idea I mean of course you know until Trump and everything that's got going on you know and uh he says tariffs a beautiful word so uh you know and a lot of us are learning about tariffs I feel like during you know we learned a little bit obviously during some of that Co stuff to degree and stuff as well but uh right now it's a it's a Hot Topic and I think a lot of us don't don't understand of course we've got both sides we've got the left and the right trying to you know one says it's great and one says it's bad and you know one says that uh the consumers are paying one says the businesses and the the people and other foreign companies are paying how does the Tariff get paid you know who who actually pays this or you know I mean what would a 25% if we you know how exactly does that work what does that do to a $100 item right a 25% tariff so so the initial tariff gets to get has to be paid by line for example right so the initial tariff gets paid by us because we're the Importer we're bring the goods in so at Port we have to pay the tariffs to release the product off the bat there's certain codes that we have to enforce and follow there's anti-dumping there's fees and then there's tariffs so that they have to get paid at Port so whoever's bringing it in for example we'll just use line as an example it's easy so line brings it in we have to pay that tariff right us or our or our Factory one of us is paying a tariff for it to be relased out of poor and you're paying that to the government you're paying that to the government to the United States government the Tariff is being paid to so it's not being paid to the the the manufacturer back wherever you bought the material or the freight company or anything you're paying a separate to the United States Treasury Department the government whoever it is right yeah 100% yeah exactly the problem with tariffs is I end up getting trickle down to the end user right it's just natural it's a cost of business because you know we everyone thinks there's all this money in selling and distribution and the honest truth there isn't the Market's tight margins are low you know there's a lot of competition which is good for the installer but when this happens it just gets trickled down and pass to the end use and the problem is the install company that's not really working with good vendors that are educating them and helping them go hey

Guys it's coming you can send me a letter and go hey Brian I'm L sending you this letter but if I say Brian bro hey coming up next three months I don't know what's going to happen make sure You' got escalation Clauses make sure you're you know you're making your clients very aware that we're only holding quotes for seven days because if it's on the ground it's good if it's coming it's a tariff and maybe the Tariff will change in a week maybe it won't and that's the uncertainty right now there's no like blanket hey it's locked locked in we're off and running and I feel like I'd rather get it locked in and know hey that's business and then we can just let everyone know think but right now because it's so uncertain and I think when tariffs come too people hedge their bets a little bit right because replacement costs are replacement costs and you look at the product on the ground and you're like man that's worth some money now right before it was worth little money now it's worth money so you start to hge you back and go well here's my increase letter etc etc you know cuz it's truly replacement cost it's it's a real thing but that's where it sort of gets convoluted a little bit but in the end of the day I can understand and and as everyone can tell from my accent I'm from Australia but I can understand why the tars went in because fair is fair right Americans products are getting tariffed overseas yet some of these products that were coming into the country from other countries weren't getting tariffs so I get the principle right that's what people have to understand it's not just that part's true but how much is too much because it's really going to affect business and what gets confusing I think um for a lot of people is we hear 25% tariff on Tuesday 25% tariff on Tuesday so we know on Tuesday a 25% tariff went in and then how come how come we get an increase from one of of the big Distributors of 10% so I mean are they eating the the are they eating the 15% I find it hard to believe considering you know is that what they're doing no yes or no yes or no like we'll like you know good vendors will partner up with clients to go hey we'll help you out but also just know that like let's say it's a blank at 25% it doesn't mean that's the full amount that line fence is going to get the 25% because it's based on all sorts of different products right 25% coming out of let's say Canada so line orders it from Canada but it's not necessarily a full 25 it depends on the product raw raw products different shipping's different depends on shipping costs at the time it also depends on what we can save and what we can't and then a finish good might not get the full 25 it might get 20 okay so yeah it's it's it's very it's it's really murky Waters right right so you know so certain things that are 100% 25% across board does not matter it matters what country it comes from and that's it but generally across the line it depends on um on the products and that's why you know there's different different increases than than you think you know yeah so because I mean I I was just about I haven't seen anything higher than a 15% increase coming across and we get uh you know we purchase from a lot of different places so we get the notification and of course people are posting them online and we're seeing them all and all that stuff and people are reaching out to me Brian what are your thoughts on this and you know how do you feel you know about this and this and this and I've yet to see anything bigger than 15% from anybody so it just makes me uh even myself wonder you know well we keep seeing 25% 25 well why you know what's happening to that 10% item I'm saying 25% increase on steel ornamental which I do right that's my that's what L's really good at it's coming from other companies not our company um so it's it's there but also too domestically like let's say domestic pipe domestic pipe's only 10% how much import versus domestic so all these letters that are going out are very confusing for customers because they're like oh what's going you know so I just tell everyone out there that talks to us you know look guys we're going to educate you we're going to help you through this um just I warn everyone try to try to work with fwa try to work with good vendors that can help navigate through this CU it's a mess it's completely uncertain times um and just protect yourself because I feel like if you're not aware you can't do anything but at least if you're aware you know

Some things that you can try to yeah try to work when I saw you last week um at fence Tech I noticed that and a lot of stuff has changed in the last year two years um when I saw you at fence Tech you were surrounded by a lot of um the European and Asian markets and stuff that were coming in way more than I've ever seen at a fence show um you know it was a lot and it was a lot of guys selling iron and things like that so um I'm just curious with that huge I I don't know if it's if they were always here or if it's new but it with all these new um suppliers and manufacturers are coming in selling to um fence companies and everything do you think that's going to help control the fence companies from being taken advantage of or the greedy people that would have normally raised the price 60 70% you know what I mean even though there was only a 20% terar for 10 15 20 so um do you think that's going to help control the market a little bit for fencers anyway well look I think look mean you always talk about competition's good yeah so long as it's good competition right you know if you're playing if you you know play sport and your opponent's always weak how do you improve so if competition's strong you're going to get better as a sports player as well same guys business so if the competition's good and playing by the American rules yeah it's good it's healthy for everybody because it means that everyone's got a more even playing field when it comes to the installation side the issue is are they playing by the rules now s everyone's going to ask what are the rules s there I just wrote down American rules because I'm going to circle back to that I love that you said that I didn't want to forget that so look you know we don't have to dig up a dead horse that's buried three four years ago and I moved from a big company to come over here right so people said a lot of not so nice things about Sasha all right and lion but we never came to the market to to try to to um just cheapen it we came to Market to to work to take care of like you know that distribution model right like nobody wants to destroy that model because I feel like this that happened this new this new um era of all these importers and European importers coming in this could be bad for distribution and I feel like we're trying to Circle back and go no we need distribution we really do we don't like the this direct sell model in line has a of the direct some model but it's a hybrid and it's what we've told people many times if we settle a distributor you're getting a better price with SLE a contractor you're getting a better price not as good as a distributor because they need to resell it right and then everybody underneath pays a fair price but it's not like the contractor so we're trying to protect the industry in the fact that you need this you need distribution right now when you allow other companies in and look that's fair I told you competition's good competition to interrupt for one second So when you say American rules we're thinking about because by the way when America is different than a lot of places a lot of other countries I we are we are we are probably holding on to the uh manufacturer distributor dealer uh end user or which is the homeowner customer or whoever happens to be we are holding on to that model and we're holding on to it as long as we can here in the in the US and in America a lot longer so is that the American um is that is is that going to be the American rules you're thinking the manufacturer distributor and then dealer which is a fence company kind of model yeah that like I mean that's the model I believe again coming from an austral Asian market European market for many many years it's a different model it's completely different model um where the American Market is is that model within a nutshell you know sort of you know little but that's pretty much it so that model I feel like's a healthy model but there was a there's a break in that chain and the scary thing not scary the it's not scary but the fact that there's now more foreign companies coming in and going more direct and circumnavigating you know that distribution model and the issue is what's the point of it's like how do they sell right like so certain companies will sell a certain way um and certain companies will try to tell you know the American people hey no this is what you want this is what we're Stelling you and that's like yeah no

That's not going to work either so it has to be a balance and I feel like that could be a problem with seeing that many to be honest with you I've never seen it that with that many manufacturers from overseas um you talking about last week at fence te yeah that was the biggest I've ever seen that sort of that many um so you think going back to my original question do you think um and of course we're the fence workers Association so uh you know I while I'm also somebody that distributes and sells a lot of materials around the country um you know now I'm talking to you as the president of the fence workers Association which is 80 or percent above a lot of the workers in the small fence companies and things like that so um for our members do you think that because of the access to all these additional um you know direct sale manufacturers and things like that do you think that's going to keep everybody in check is what I'm kind of asking do you think that some of the people we'd normally buy from that if they didn't have all that that would have maybe raised it up and got away with it do you think it's going to check it a little bit because we have access outside of our normal you know normal controls that we would have I think it's going to keep it might be initially right but the issue at the end of the day is quality like it's like and my theory five years ago was very simple I feel like quality is going to be less and less important because as the market tightens and we're all trying to make money and it's all going to be about price but not as much right it's like so yeah there's going to be quality issues it's going to be all sorts of representation issues you know um representation in America like there's going to be all these little things that I think yeah initially I believe it's going to it's going to cause a sto stirb but I think people are going to find out that at the end of the day this distrib this American model per se I think it's going to change a little bit it might be a little bit more hybrid than it's ever been but I really feel it's a model that you know we need to try to keep somewhat alive you know try to keep it we prot yeah we got to protect it and you know I'm a big fan of the manufacturer distributor dealer and then out to every everybody else and I think I guess I look back and you know I have a lot more discussion and probably I ever have or probably anybody should have regarding this subject because I talk to a lot of fence companies and they all struggle with the same thing about supplies and stuff and about service and I still and you've heard me say this before I think we stop judging our um we stop judging our companies by their service and their and their products and started judging them by who they sell their products to and that's where it's gone you know it's it feels like and I and I can't help it I have this question I have with a lot of people I'm like I get you know I think they were always here I think that you could always I mean we were always getting hit up whether through Alibaba whatever it was we were always getting hit up by um people from um Asia and stuff specifically right trying to sell uh chain link iron and all this stuff but you know for decades we just blew them off we wouldn't even talk to them uh it wouldn't matter if they were here or anywhere else I mean look Sasha you you came into my office for five years you couldn't even get past the front door right I was that loyal um I mean that loyal to my Distributors right and I did nothing I bought everything you if even right now if you go to my yard most of it is still from Distributors I mean I every iron I mean 10,000 uh temporary panels I bought from um Distributors where either came from Builders Merchants Masters or whoever it happened to be that was delivering up to us and we we had a system it was a good system that worked you know we supplied smaller fense companies here we supplied uh contractors and you know mainly contractors and if there was events going on whether it be you know things like that they would come buy the temporary panels from us and you know I'm just using numbers say we sold those for you know 12 to 150 that was what a going price in the neighborhood or something but then all of a sudden we're bidding against our Distributors you know and I you know they're selling them to the contractors and selling them to the event places for the same price they sell them to me for so although I didn't want to talk to people like yourself that was coming in or I'm not I'm not putting you as a bad guy but you know what I mean anybody that was trying you

Know that was selling to us besides my my same distributor I bought from at all and then it felt like we had to go out and find you know and go around the distributor because the distributor went around around us so I look at um why are they here why is the Asian um and the European markets here why why is it working so well right now when it didn't work 101 15 years ago so we got to ask ourselves what's causing that oh look the magic question is why I think we can complain all we want like me so complain all I want because we're American based company that happens the import right we're American based of American employees you know blah blah blah blah blah but then I have to look at myself and go well why are they here right so they're not here because we pushed them out they're here because there was an opening right yeah and I didn't mean to lump you in with that that market I'm I I was lumping you in with the fact that I I was as loyal and I think fencers are as loyal they're probably some of the most loyal customers you can possibly have and we have been for decades and decades to one specific distributor that maybe our uncle bought from or our father bought from we stick with that person we don't question their pricing we don't play any games we order we write a check when the stuff's delivered or maybe have the credit so when I say you know you were coming in or reaching out I mean we we wouldn't even talk to anybody else so what is what is opening that door up for everybody you know what I mean if if if you know if our Distributors and stuff are still there what what's making it what's making it possible for them to come in and dump all these money into our trade shows all this money into our advertising our sponsorships how how are they able to do it now when they couldn't do it 10 years ago because I feel like distribution needs to recheck itself right so we you know me Bri I think we get and I can only put myself in that box might put you in there because you know I don't want to have to answer for you but you know I think we get misinterpreted especially me because I don't want the distribution model to go but the problem is the distribution model needs to check itself because how does that make sense if my customer for example Las Vegas fance has a retail business and I'm now selling to your gc's and people you're selling to it makes it very difficult for you to put bolt on some more money into your business and that was not our traditional model like the traditional distribution model was you know preached to me from day one when I started in American distribution was C13 license C13 license only cell defense contractors only cell offense I was just drilled into me and it made sense right it is like we here to protect that industry yet somewhere along the line Brian really don't care who out there disagrees with this because it's living proof it's happened I know you've experienced it firsthand we've sort of lost our way a bit you know we need to reain that back and remember this industry isn't built without the fence installer and a story see you later and some of these fence installer and I'm not going to say some a lot of fenc installers have a really have a retail business it's part of hey we're buying chaining we're buying fittings we're buying pipe we're buying iron like let's stock a bit and in their little communities look even in Southern California I sell but I have clients that have little retail businesses all through SoCal and we're surrounded by the biggest some of the biggest supply companies of America in SOA like was saturated yeah in these little pockets I have customers that have retail businesses so it's a fine line but we got to remember at this as as Distributors if we're going to preach this C13 whatever that license is then we're got to live it but if we're not going to preach it then that's okay but don't don't say you're doing something and you're all about this when you're not and I feel like that's how we rain back that that um I say the good old days I don't think they'll ever be the good old days but at least rain back that distribution model that I feel like Brian as a fence I'm an xense install I didn't want to deal with three manufacturers and three dis I just man I had a oil guy I'd go to him first and if for some reason he didn't have it as I was doing these bids I'd go to the other guys because he just didn't have it but generally I don't have time to go

Pricing things and walking around I got to work with someone because I got my head down throwing out you know estimation after estimating after after qu after you know and then throw in the tariffs like I've got my head down like oh how do I be this here the last thing I want to do is worry about my distributor selling to oh my God yeah it's got to be exhausting no and and don't get me wrong I am a big fan if anybody knows me of if you got a product sell it to whoever you want so um you know I want to protect the distribution model and you know the the what we call the American rules I had to write it down because I'm remember that but um I want to I want to protect that but at the same time I'm fan of everybody selling to whoever they want to sell to but what I'm not a fan of is uh protecting it when you know only for certain parts of it I think that we if we're going to respect it everybody has to respect it uh you you know I don't think just the fence company should respect it everybody else does whatever they want you know and uh it's tough man but I I can only imagine having a product or something that you you you developed and you built and then uh none of the Distributors want to carry it or something um and then you're out going well I got to feed my family I got a mortgage and kids to put through school and things like that so it's either you got to go belly up or you got to start selling your products to the fence companies so um what do you think we can do to um I I hate to see it my my prediction in the next three to five years is um if we're not careful we're going to have nothing but a hybrid model happening and it's going to either hurt or I don't know how it's gonna affect the small fence companies because um is you know as much as I as much as I'm not happy the way the Distributors are going around the fence companies I'm going to be less happy that we don't have them there to service the small fence companies they can't afford to BU truckloads and things like that but I don't think that it's right that they're abused you know what I mean and that I don't think that they should be dropping stuff uh they should be using our distribution channels of the small fence companies to supply box stores and things like that um I think that's you know that's not right either so um I don't know I think if we don't fix that it's going to be a meth I think our you know our it's going to be real Topsy turby for the um you know for the distribution model and all of a sudden we're going to be stuck you know stuck with just everybody direct selling so I'm nervous about that and I'm hoping that um some of that gets fixed what do you think something we can do to fix that or do you think it's just kind of going down a road that there's not much anybody can do because it's setting its ways well the issue isn't can we fix it yes we can are we going to fix it well we need to get together right and the issue that distribution has is we're all trying to outdo each other we're all trying to oh who who's in who's in your booth who's in you the binoculars down like who cares like we need to start as a and I mean dude I've been beating this drum since the day I started at line it was not it's not the model that we wanted it was the model we were forced to do right and in the end of the day if we're not working with each other we're working against each other so I feel like that's the issue feel like um you know in this uncertain times like I don't care what fanc company whether you got one truck or 50 trucks good luck bidding right now you are going to struggle to bid I don't care if you're not lined up with the right V is helping you walk navigate through these tariffs you're going to struggle to bid and I feel bad because what's going to happen there because just like the domestic Market the supply chain issue is going to be this I don't have it what do you mean you don't have it well we sold out of it because we can't get it quick enough right or you know there's all these supp chain issues or oh by the way the cost is 50% higher what do you mean is 50% I bid it at this price I don't have 50% look I don't even have 15% to put in this you know so I feel like that's that's where I feel like that education part look we don't need to get along but I don't understand like we're all selling F like so from the supply side right from distribution side we're all selling fans who cares there's plenty of work out there we just need to remember we we can work together and

Work this out but that takes people that takes movements that takes effort but in the meantime if we don't I'm telling you these importers are going to come in and yes and yes power's going to go to it's going to shift and installers are going to go there yeah they're going to get roed because none of these not all of these in importers are who they crack themselves out to be and it's going to be Lessons Learned but it's going to be disrupt for sure without a question in my mind man I hope not I mean I know um you know with fwa and the fence show and all that I'm part of somebody that's maybe pushing things to come sooner um because I I am so out there and so open about it and I think for so long nobody's talked about it it's almost like they're afraid to upset somebody right or afraid to say something they might get cut off or this or that but um I think I say stuff because I want it um I want it to stop I want I want it to go to you know back to how it's supposed to be and and um I want that chain I want that fence companies buying from Distributors and um but I want the Distributors buying from the manufacturers you know not you know and not trying to control it to the point where one manufacturer controls the whole market and we're all at the mercy of of one manufacturer deciding who's getting the jobs based off of this person they Supply the materials to and things like that so I want a more open channel of lots of options because if the European markets are willing to come in and sell I'm sure they would rather sell through distributorships I'm I'm I'm guessing if I was coming in here I'd rather sell my product in bulk to the large Distributors and have the Distributors which already have the um you know the network to distributed out to all of us through our channels right I'm sure they'd rather go that route I'd like to see them um open the floodgates to more options on materials and buying from you you know what I mean and stuff like that as well and having I'd rather see you guys all just Supply these Distributors and Distributors do that they've got the the network in in place and and stuff but my nervousness is if we don't get to that point where um you know there there looking out for our best interest and they're shopping for the best deal they can get to get us the best deal not just relationships um you know with a couple manufacturers I think that uh it's going to go away and I'm nervous so I hope that it changes and I hope that it changes I hope Distributors get stronger and and uh see what's happening um as well you know and fix that so um let's talk about the fence show man for a second I I know we could you and I could go down that road for a long time so uh being a weir was talking about fence Tech uh you had pretty similar booth at the fence show and a lot of people are already reaching out to us we had a flood of people every year after fence Tech we just get flooded with people getting our booths for the fence show yep so you guys are G to be there you got your booth all picked out yeah we're there we're we're going to be Senter upline in in in the show we're looking forward to it um I'm I'm excited about it um you know clients new clients uh new people yeah I can't wait you know love Vegas one of my favorite places to run away from the wife did I say that on on podcast sorry so now look it's it's I'm excited right it's all about I feel the atmosphere is there and um you know it's a good time love the venue feel like it's affordable I know a lot of my clients loved it and um yeah it's going to be a good show can't wait yeah we got some cool stuff anybody's listening um actually the Portal's open now for hotel rooms too we opened that up not too long ago so fence show.com um go in there and register uh you have a code too I don't know if we got your code we should have got you made sure you knew your code um we're going to drop in the comments we're g to drop th's code in uh if you want to uh register and get a free Expo um Hall Pass let's do um we're pretty excited about it there'll be a lot of uh a lot of new people coming in um a lot of large groups we found that uh we really kind of catered it to not just uh the business owners themselves coming but being able to bring their whole team to get more fencers and um stuff to the show as well I got a lot of people making it they I guess they we had one guy that uh came over and said hey you know what we're going to be bringing 10 people this year we brought just me and our wife last year and they said you

Guys have made it to where um you know you could put two people in a room for 250 bucks for the whole week and they're using this as a big morale booster and we got another guy that said hey you know what we bring our team of 20 year show and uh but we make them do we make them work for it they uh every one of them has to get an OSHA 30 card or something on their own time or so we make them or and they have to when they go to the class they got to sit through at least a couple of the classes they go to the show so um there's little things you can do like that and the morale is just uh you know through the roof they look forward to it you know for uh you know every year coming so um Sasha um I know I probably made you talk on a couple subjects that I wasn't planning we were just going to talk about tariffs but uh somehow you and I always always got stuff to talk about hang me like you know T that news a little bit yeah thank you appreciate that yeah yeah thanks thanks for coming on I'm gonna let you go home everybody everybody that's watching live thank you and everybody that's watching this uh you know in the future uh pre-recorded we appreciate you uh taking the time um we will talk to everybody next Wednesday we got some uh really cool stuff going on next Wednesday um we'll be doing some sneak peeks of what we're going to be discussing but definitely watch for those sash we'll talk to you later man thanks all right