Union Myths with Iron Workers 63

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All right, it's Wednesday already. Hey, thank you everybody for tuning in. Today's a really cool episode. We've got Paul with Iron Workers 63 live with us today to talk about some of the myths, some of the benefits, and just some information you need to know about uh the Iron Workers unions and and basically unions in our industry. So Paul, welcome. Welcome uh to the show. Ah, thank you, Brian. I appreciate your time and thanks for having me on. Yeah, we appreciate it. So, I I I met you last year. I don't know if I met you the year before, but I feel like we did, but last year at the fence show. Uh you guys come every year, and that's really cool. Um and uh I had a lot of lot of good feedback about you guys being in there, and a lot of people were really interested in uh the unions and the and the in the fence industry. So, um you probably go back in your uh back into your industry a little bit further than last year's fence show, though. Yeah, a couple years. Unfortunately, they no longer call me kid Brian. Uh I started way back in 1986 as an iron worker right out of high school. So that was u much to my dad's sugarin who was an iron worker. He wanted me to go to college. But uh as I told him as I was smart enough, but I did not want to sit in a classroom all day. So this might be a little better avenue for me. Yeah. Yeah. So the 80s so I mean it was a whole different beast back then. I mean that's I remember 100%. 100%. Yeah. When I started it was ropes and uh belts. There was no safety harnesses and all that other good stuff. So I go back a little bit. There was a safety harness. They weren't they weren't testing it every year to make see what the date was on it. That's for sure. Right. Got that right. So what So you were actually out there when you say Iron Workers, you were actually up uh on the buildings building some fence. Kind of doing it all. Doing a little bit of it all. I you know the company I worked for I worked for actually for a womanowned company for about 20 years. And um we did a lot of everything. We did a lot of school work and which uh got us into a little bit of everything. So, uh, through the years I've done it all, including, you know, rolling shutter doors, you did a little fence, did a lot of glass, you know, curtain wall were really a one of our big things here in ' 63. We do a lot of glass and metal. And, uh, we did, you know, I don't know how many of you familiar with Chicago, but Cloudgate, the beam, we did that. All that stainless steel and all that, that's Iron Workers Local 63 did that. Hey, so what um, for people that aren't in the union, and it's kind of a mystery obviously, you got people that say, "I love the unions, people say, I hate the unions." It's like they don't, of course, nobody even really knows why. We just like it's like almost like you grow up one party or the other, right? So what what do all these numbers mean? What do you know we see these like local 63, local 55? What what is all what what is the number? I mean how do they come up with those numbers? Well, the number is what you receive when you go into existence. So we were chartered in 1903 and we were the 63rd union to join the federation known as the iron workers bridge structural and ornamental. Oh, we were the 6 We were given the 63rd chart out of everyone in the country. So that's interesting. I So some of the higher numbers. So the lower the number, the older the union is basically. The lower the number, the older the older it is. And then Chicago actually shared with local one who were the got the original number. Those are the structural guys who do the structural part. And we're architectural ornamental, one of only two locals in the country. That distinction is us in New York. And uh so which gave us a better advantage from a lot of other people is we are very uh good at what we do because we are very uh detail orientated uh you know we do a lot of layout which is important especially in fence and curtain wall and all these other things. So we do a lot of math and a lot of fence in our school. So we learn we learn a lot of stuff there which is important. So you're out of Chicago. God that's weird. I never heard of unions in Chicago. Yeah. Yes. the Windy City hits. I think there's a few of them. So, you guys know a few things about unions down there. It's they do we do a good job of um of bringing people in and uh and working with our politicians to make sure that uh everybody gets a to a proper wage and benefit and uh make sure everything works right. You know, it's it's

Important for everybody to play on a level playing field. Yeah. And I think what's uh people watching or listening should know is why it's so important to have you specifically on here uh you know regarding especially we do a lot in this fence industry. You know I know it's a trade industry podcast but it's a really heavy on fence and gate and things like that. So um what do you bring differently? You you particularly you really kind of I want to almost say pioneered a lot of stuff when it came to uh figuring out good systems on how you can bring people in the union on the fence side of it and keep them on the fence side of it. Oh 100%. So what what we before I got here we actually had a separate category alto together for fence and uh we kind of grew it you know once we get I got in here the first thing I did my first week on the job was hire a fence organizer and um who spoke Spanish and I was able to uh because I knew two things I wasn't an expert at fence yet and I didn't speak Spanish so I needed help on both aspects and uh he was the perfect guy for that uh he was teaching in school teaching fence and I gave him an opportunity need to be an organizer. And uh that guy really took off. He's probably brought in about 20 contractors since I put him on and uh has really brought in a bunch of new members and uh speaking to a lot of people. He's done a great job for us and it also helps politically when you have to go to to the Hispanic politicians, you have someone who's Hispanic who can talk to them. Yeah, it helps in a lot of different avenues. Yeah, we've um we've done quite a bit to um reach out also. But we got, you know, FWA espanol and it's we're working on our first very first pretty much almost all Spanish class that's going to be happening uh in Florida next month or this month. What is it? It's actually July already. Isn't that crazy? Huh? Yeah. Time's flying. So, what's the union life like? I mean, what's it like for say say one of our one of our fence companies or one of the fencers joined the union? Tell me tell me how that is. What's that what's that life like for him? I mean, does he get up every day at same 5:00 a.m. and head out to a job site and work and he's got that one boss? I mean, what exactly is it like for a fence company or a fence guy to work in to be part of the union? Well, the good Well, the good thing for us, you know, I should say for everybody is being part of the union is is, you know, we I have 300 men and women in this local who just do fence. They're fencers. And u we've got well probably closer to 40 contractors now who just do fence. And the good thing for them is is when they get slow, they can send the people back to us. And when they get busy, we got people to send to them. So, it keeps the workflow going. You don't have to retrain people when you get fat and when you get busy. We've got the people for you. When you're slow, we'll take the people from you and move them to someone else. And it makes it easier to run a company. As someone who ran a company for years was I ran a smaller company, which is always tough keeping people because you you get real busy, you need 20 guys for two months and then next thing you know, you need five. And then you're like that for a while, they need 20 again. Well, if you're doing that as a regular business without the union, trying to train and regrit those kind of people is just it's an astronomical feat that you're never going to get on top of. You're always going to be behind the eightball trying to train them. And with us is, you know, not only do we take care of that problem for you, we also take care of their health care and their pension and everything else. So, you don't have to worry about the 401k, the health care, or any of those other things. And when you need a kid, excuse me, we have them. I can get you a young person. You're doing a a federal job. You need someone a certain zip code. I can get that for you. I can find it. I can get it and I can make sure you have it. And that's the good thing about when you're with a union or as a contractor. I apologize is that you always have someone who's looking out for your best interest because if you ain't making money, I'm not making money. And I like to make money. And that's how I look at all this is I'm a CEO of a multi-million dollar business. and my partners, the contractors need to make money in order for me to make money. Yeah. So, it works hand in hand. And it's a really nice, it's a really great feeling. And when we negotiate our last fence contract, which was 3 months ago, we did it in two hours and we did a 5-year deal because of the

Relationship that we have, right? They know I have their best interest at heart, and they know I'm trying to supply them with the best iron workers I can. So, what's the contract? I mean, for people that aren't in the union, you know, that don't live this life know a lot of the terms, a lot of the stuff just it just we hear it, right? But what when you when you say you negotiated a contract in two hours, what does that what does that mean? What does that mean for the industry? So now you're not dealing with your each individual person. So like if you're running a company and you have 20 people, you got to negotiate with 20 different people. This is your raise, this is this. We negotiate on behalf of the whole fence industry. And we set the standard for the fence industry for prevailing wage in the state of Illinois. So that when they're when you're when we're negotiating our contract, we're not negotiating over our nickels and dimes for healthcare and all that kind of stuff. I'm just negotiating a raise. The union decides where it goes and where it needs the most help. So if we need help on the, you know, we got a $2.75 raise this time around. Some of that money is going to go into healthcare. Some of it's going to go into their pension and they got a I think a $1.15 on their check. Yeah. And so this way we were able to take care of their benefits, take care of all that stuff for the members. And then also the contractors now have a 5-year deal in place where they know they're not going to have a sit down, not going to have guys walking off complain about what they make or anything else like that. It's all under control. Everything's under control for them. And there's they have an avenue where they can call the union to make sure that, hey, I have a problem with this guy. Well, we can take care of that for them. So all everything has a purpose when you're with the union. And the myth that we're going to shove people down your throats and make you take people is long gone. I haven't done that to a contractor since I got this chair in 2018. I haven't forced anybody down anybody's throat. Yeah, this is a business and I I expect to get return business, you got to get them good people because if you get them [ __ ] people, you're not going to get them back and that's it's tough to work with people when you when you don't have a relationship like that. So yeah. So it's a different mindset. So, you're saying that if you're if if a company became unionized and they were to call you and say they need 20 people for 2, three months that uh or even if somebody works for you for a long time, they're not going to be coming back because you got a 5-year agreement. They're not going to come back and say, "I've been here a year. I deserve a raise." Yep. They don't It may But you have a contract and you tell them you have a collective bargaining agreement. This is what it is. the foreman get a dollar extra where it's actually what is it 250 over scale. So your foreman is getting 250 over what everybody else in the gang is getting. So that's already spelled out. Everything is spelled out. There's no when your breaks are when everything is spelled out. So there's no confusion for anybody. So yeah, contractor signs, he knows what the deal is. There's no secrets. It's all transparent. And when a member signs, he's given the same book of rules that the contractor's given. These are the rules that we all work with just so everybody's on the same level playing field. No one has an advantage over anybody except for your overhead. That's your advantage depending on how you run your own business. What gives you the advantage? It has nothing to do with your labor force. That's interesting. So, it's it's almost creating a culture for you without the the effort of you having to go through and create the actual culture. But, you know, in in lot like a lot of trades, there's depending on where you're at in the country, unless you're in the sunb belt, you're shutting down sometimes for two, three months out of the year. And it's always that awkwardness for people. I hear it from people all the time. I got these great employees. Now, here comes the winter time and they need the money the most and holidays are here and you've got to like lay them off and let them go on unemployment and stuff like that. So, there's no awkwardness at all. You just tell the guys, I don't need you for two months. That's how it works. And surprisingly, believe it or not, even in this frozen freaking state I live in,

Uh, we tend to work year round. Even the fence guys, they'll get slow maybe January, February a little bit, they don't mind taking those months off because it's freezing outside anyway. And half of them are going down to either Florida or Mexico or somewhere else to get out of the cold. The other ones that are here, they find it seem to find work for them. You know, there's always something to do. And, you know, temporary fence, we do a lot of that. So on job sites and you know so that that always stays busy year round and then the only thing that takes a hit would be digging holes and pouring concrete but as long as there's a certain temperature which it seems to be warming up a little bit. It's not as cold as it was when I started for weeks on end and you'd be freezing forever. It's ain't quite that bad here anymore. If it gets any warmer people going to be start moving here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I grew up in Alaska and Idaho and stuff like that. My uncle's fence companies. They owned Anchorage Fence and stuff back then. So I mean I don't remember taking a lot of time off. We were out there shoveling the fence line and uh as long as uh as long as you could drive and plow it and shovel it, you were uh you were still working. In fact, I think we used to go back I remember we'd go back in the springtime and uh when the when the snow melted and you'd find all kinds of stuff in the ground, right? Rolls of wire, pipe, pliers, tools. All the tools you lost while you were building the fence. There it is. I got you. There's that wheelbarrow. Yeah. Yeah. You'll always find a day to pour and then you could always stretch on any day, right? So that that's never anything. It's just as long as long as you can find a day to pour, which you can always find. It doesn't take that code that long. Yeah. Yeah. It would cover it up. Yeah. So I'm going to pull back up. Uh we got Aaron here. Uh and Aaron, by the way, you can reach out to me and I'll I'll sync you up with Paul. But um so Aaron has a question. How do I get, you know, how does he get into the union? And uh is it available in Central Florida? So is it I mean, you're from Chicago, but I know you have contacts everywhere. Yeah, I have contacts throughout the country. So yeah, if uh Aaron want if you want to give out my information at the end, Brian, we can do that and they can contact me and we'll get them a hold of the people that that can help them. Uh we got iron workers all over time. I do have friends who business manager out in Orlando who's a good friend of mine and uh he's got some good people down there and then we can help uh whoever this person was. Eron, we can help him out. Yeah, he's a good guy. Um yeah, so then we kind of you kind of hit it up a little bit earlier. Let's talk about some union myths. Sure. Let's get into it. Everybody's got a union story. I've got one people listening. You've got a couple. We hear it enough times it becomes reality right in our head. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I got the I got the moniker Shy Town Gotti to begin with. So, we're not mobbed up, just for the record. And I'm not Italian. So, that's your first question. So, I'm not I'm not being coerced to to to have him on. By the way, I'm going to be able to make it out of here safe and sound. I didn't send the leg breakers to go see you, Brian. No, that did not happen. So, um, what about the unions are for the older generation? Let's talk about that for a second because the new generation and stuff. I mean, is it is it still still a good fit for that? I mean, have you you know what I mean? Have you done something? It's the workers now are different than they were 30 years ago. Oh, 100%. But but that's I think they also get a a bad rap on some of these young people because I think the ones that we've gotten through and that have come through our program are phenomenal young people who are excited to work, excited to make a decent living and they've been that college route. They've seen what that's like and there's no jobs. You know, the jobs are here. And when you can train and get paid, there's nothing better. You're you're going to school and getting paid at the same time. And yeah, the older generations had their thing, but that was a whole different thing. Now it's it's different. It's more streamlined. I have an app on my phone that my members get information. You know, we've updated everything. We've changed the whole philosophy of how we operate. The good old boy club is gone. We opened the doors for everybody. It's very diverse. Like I said, I've got a Hispanic

Organizer. My political director is an African-American gentleman. It's just It's not the good old boy club it used to. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a new atmosphere. We're not the cowboys in the sky. We're not the drunks. We're not the drug addicts. We're not that anymore. We drug screen. We make sure we check we have good people in there and we train them and we train them and we train them. And that's, you know, so we make sure that these kids are ready to go. And like I said, I don't have no problem, without exaggeration, I get over 400 plus people applying every two years. Yeah. So, they want to be here. I just need more work to put them there. Yeah. So, the more contractors I bring in, the more people I can bring in who want to work and we can and it helps everybody. So, there you have it. If you're looking for some workers, uh, sound like Paul has them, you know, go to work. Let's go to work. And I think you're right because you were saying that, uh, that, you know, the new generation obviously they want to work. And the I think the difference is they actually they're craving the education and the training now. And it's it's different than when I was building fence. I mean I mean back when I was I mean we you couldn't have told us to go do a training class like I've been building fence long I know how to set post I know how to dig holes I'm not doing anything but now they want to learn and they want the skills they want the OSHA cards they want the to learn how to do gate operators and learn I mean they and they you know they want to make more money and they know they're they're not going to make more money if they if they don't learn something new so um and I think that's something that the unions do probably better than even us associations and things like that is uh you guys give them a path right to I'm sure and then there's buy paying by the members and the contractors because we pay into it. You know, on the fence side, we're paying right now it's a it's a dollar an hour for every hour worked goes into the training fund. And on the building side, it's at two and a quarter right now. And the fence side I'm upping because we're doing a lot more things now with fence than we used to. You know, that's we I bought an $80,000 Bobcat. We're augging our own holes out back. We're doing all these things. Stretching, you know, stretching cables. We're doing all these things. We got the razor wire. We got, you know, so we've upped our training. So we're upping the money we're putting into the training which the contractors owe because now that's coming off it's not coming off the wage. So they're not paying the payroll tax. So now it's coming up on the benefit side. So no one's paying the tax on that and it's not coming off the members wage. So it it it's a win-win across the board for that. So you're getting a better educated person who's into it who wants to be here. Yeah. They're we didn't force anybody to do anything, you know. So when they're here, they want to be here. They want to learn and they want to be the best they can be. as I told my my instructors is I want this place to be the West Point training schools and I want to pump out foremen superintendents. I can organize workers all day long. I can find non-UN people, bring them into the fold, but this school is meant to create the thinkers, the doers, you know, and we can get, like I said, we can organize the workers all day long and I can get them, you know, and that and that's easy to do. It's creating the future form in which people like you who run a company know the problems with that is if you don't keep those guys busy, they're workers and they're intelligent. They're going to go find something else to do. Yeah. So, the key is is if we get them all trained that way, now you have a whole group of them who have the ability to do those things. Yeah. And I I you know and I I think I've kind of I've told you my story before um about you know about I I was really fascinated with the union and even even like bidden some union projects and stuff but you know and you're really pushing hard for this the the even the unions they really didn't on the iron worker side they didn't do a good enough job training people on the fencing so it was really hard and it wasn't a big benefit for the fence companies to to sign up because you didn't have anybody building fence right and we couldn't really you couldn't send me 20 guys that knew how to build fence and now I'm seeing a shift I'm seeing that you guys are connecting and training and you're not just training them how to weld and go up

On buildings and and do structural welding because there's a big difference between um you know you get guys over there I went to you know I'm certified for welding I've been welding my whole life on these you know buildings and well there's a big difference between welding some 16 gauge tubing right uh you know and a fence together than welding quarterinch thick steel on a building or whatever right so there yeah there's a lot of things you have to get over and you know we've learned that here you know along with the curtain wall you got iron workers with their spud wrenches I want to go bang and weld or when you're touching glass, you can't do that. You know, you got to be more precise, more careful. It's a different mindset. So, with that different mindset, you had to learn to do different things. And same thing with the fence. It's a different mindset. And they also have to adjust their wages. You know, that was the biggest part for us is, you know, you can't charge building rates for putting in fence. It just doesn't work. It's not the market. So, what we've learned here is we we adjusted to the market. We created our own rule book and our own pay scale for the fence. And the way the apprenticeship works and how it all works is because it isn't one sizefits-all. You have to adjust to the market. The market dictates everything. As you know, as a business owner, the market will tell you what what everything's worth. Yeah. And and it's really easy to see if you can if you're at your eyes open, you can see how the market plays and what plays and what doesn't play. Yeah. Yeah. And I like to hear that you said you, you know, you're doing more training, you got the Bobcats, you're out there digging holes because, you know, the stigma was also a little bit just myths and stuff. It was obviously, but was iron workers like, well, you know, I do I do the fence, but I don't dig holes. And I'm like, well, you're not a fence builder. I mean, I hate to break it to you. If you're you're not going to you're not going to be in the fence business if you ever dig a hole, right? So, changing that mindset as well and saying, "Hey, if you want to work, this is the this is the job." And part of that job is setting the post, right? Yeah. Set the post. You got to dig that dirt. You got there's we're we're you know not everything's got an augur. Some of them you're pole digging and you got to do what you got to do. And that's what I tell the apprentices when I give my first speech is I wouldn't ask anybody to do anything I wouldn't do. But unfortunately for everybody for this kind of money I'd shovel [ __ ] all day long. I wouldn't care. Me too. I want to make some money. And if you're going to want to make the money, you got to do the work that goes with it. You can't just pick and choose what you want to do. It doesn't work that way. So is it true they draw a circle in the ground and if there's more than three drops of water in there, everybody goes home? number 74. Yeah, that that doesn't work for us here at Local 63. No, we we go to work. So, um, union dues, I mean, they're a waste of money. You hear the first thing people like to say, I'm not going to join this union du is a waste of money. Um, and tell me what tell me what about I mean, obviously you I'm sure they're union dues, like you were saying. Some of it goes to training, some goes to healthcare, retirement, things like that. What What are the dues? Yeah, let's let's uh let's let's go through that. So, as far as union dues go, our members only pay 3250 a month for a union dues. It's uh what is that? Uh three Starbucks coffees. Yeah. To be a member of the union and that and all that money goes to the international to run the international. The local gets its money through the working assessment. So, that's where the member pays out of his wage. They'll pay it's three 3.75%. So, he pays that. That's to pay the salaries for the agents, the organizers, the buildings and all that other good stuff. So that all comes out of that. The union dues itself, we get nothing from the local union. That all goes to the international big brother as we like to say to run the flagship. So but for as far as for for the you know and I saw someone ticked the cross there you know is um you know what unions are about strikes and all that other kind of stuff. You know another myth another another thing. So, we we can get into that one down the road. But as far as

The the dues go, the dues are what they are. They're 3250 a month. And that's just like I said, that goes to international. And then the assessment is what that is. And that covers everything to make sure that you have everything you need in your for your lives. You know, I take care of your healthcare. I take care of your pension. I take care of your training. You know, all that stuff costs. So that that's where that cost comes out. Yeah. So, and I I kind and and for and for the members, if it wasn't for investments, I'd be losing money every time because if it wasn't for the investments, there's no way I could keep up with way things are going. So, how does how does that work? Somebody um on on the installer side or the joins the union, not the company wise, does it? So, uh say I joined the union as a as a I worked for Las Vegas Fence and I wanted to join a union and go, you know, work on union jobs. So, I I I pay a certain amount to join, right? And then and then you guys send me to do some training. You pay zero to join? Zero to join. Okay. And then how does the training start? Am I am I able to just start going and working or is there a certain amount of training that has to happen before I'm allowed to go actually work? All I make sure to be a signatory contractor with Local 63, is you have to have a license to operate in the state that we're in, which is Illinois. You have to have workers compensation insurance to make sure that if someone gets hurt, they're covered. And you need to sign the contract. That's it. Yeah. No, I'm talking about the uh the actual workers. So, they join. Well, depends. And that depends like say someone like you joins and you already have a workforce and you want to join with me. So, I would talk to you and say which one of these workers do you want to be journeymen? Which ones do you want to go through the apprenticeship? And you and I would work that out together. Okay. And what however you felt whichever were your lead dogs, you want to take care of them. whichever ones were the lessers. I break the bad news to them that you're going into the apprentichip program champ. Sorry, you need some help. You, you know, and then we could slot them into different years, too. If they're really green, we put them in the first year. If they got some experience, we can put them in the second year. And if they're a little bit better, we can put them in the third year. So, there's different ways we can do it. And we always work with the contractor to see what they want to do and how they want to do it to make sure it's an easy move. And then if you need help, I have the workers to give you. But if you have your own, I would happily take them, too. So you could I mean, you can essentially you could you could go union on your company and have a whole new set of workers the next week. Yes. Yeah. That's that's And if so, if you had if you needed to ramp up, you guys help them ramp up pretty quickly because that that's a huge problem when you're out bidding stuff. So how do you think that affects um honestly the wages are getting pretty close. I mean my guys are making almost union wages on the on the private side. So, being that that's leveled out a little bit, does that mean as a union company, you can still go out and bid uh a normal job? It doesn't have to be a union job, right? No. Our guys go, you'd be surprised at what our some of our fence contractors can pull off. And right and because we gotten really good at putting the fence in, we're actually can be competitive with the non-union rates. And and let's not kid ourselves, the non-union knows exactly what the union's making. It's posted everywhere. It it is not hidden. We are the most watched organization there is in this country is the unions. So everything I do and say you you can even look up what I make. Everything is out there that that is out there. There's nothing that that isn't transparent that you can't see and that you if you wanted to look for it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting. I I definitely want to um hear more. If anybody wants to hear more about this and actually talk about um your business, maybe becoming union or or talking to the union about joining it, they will be in Las Vegas October 1st to the 3rd. Um, you'll be able to come walk around and uh come. Paul, you'll be there as well, right? I'll be the handsome devil at the booth. Okay. Come up, say hi, tell them you saw uh, you know, you saw him on the show and you want to talk and learn more about that. So, um, on the and here's another one. Unions are anti- business. That's

You know, I mean, we hear that sometimes, right? And of course, you kind of tapped on this earlier. Um, you know, about how if the if the business aren't making money, you're not making money. Tell me tell me how that came about or why why some people say that. And and for good reason back in the day that did happen and you know they were more you know and not that I'm not you know I'm still membership driven but I understand how business works and back in the day when you had 90% union density you were able to inflict your will on others and get away with what you want. Yeah. Well that's not like that anymore. and the the endless possibilities for someone who is not a signatory contractor is is unlimited. So what so the only way you're going to get them in the fold is to what? To make it user friendly and to be a partner with them. Yeah. And my first speech to members when I took over in October of 2018 was we are not going to run it the way it used to be. I am the CEO of a business and we're going to run it like a business. I had people putting together resumes. I had people doing all kinds. What the hell am I doing a resume for? Go, you want someone to know what you're capable of. Isn't that a great thing? Brag about it. You should. You ran these jobs. You did this. I think a contractor would love to see that. See how ambitious you are and what you want to do with yourself. All those things are important. And and nothing could be further thrown the truth here at Local 63. And like I told you earlier is we did our contract in a couple hours for the fence side and the building side took I want to say like three or four hours to knock out a three-year contract. is because I become really user friendly with the contractors. The me the me they know the members need a good raise. They want to keep me there because I'm business friendly. So they know that I have to make sure the members are taken care of or else I'm out because I have to get elected every three years. So one way or another it has to work for all of us. So they know and I you know and I talked to them ahead of time. I said you know what I need? I need to get here. How close can you get me without killing you? Yeah. And if you need a little break in the first year I can give you a little break in the first year. You get me on the back end. We can work it in any kind of way you want to make it work for all of us. And that's how we kind of approach all this stuff. It's it's like a negotiation should be, right? No one leaves the room mad. No one gets everything they want. You know, that's when you know it's a good negotiation. But everybody less a little less satisfied than they were, but you're okay with I can live with this. Absolutely. We're all gonna we're all going to survive. We're gonna be okay and no and no one's mad and we have a beer at the end and everybody's happy and it it goes well. And like I said, I get that and I understand why people feel that way, but I can assure you from the iron worker side that we've gone a long way to kind of change that whole image and the way that has gone through because it it doesn't get any of us anywhere. And I learned that when I was an agent, too. I'd go out there huffing and puffing when I come across a non-signatory contractor, but it got me nowhere. When I became nicer and I talk to people, then they open up and then we have a real conversation. I see what their needs are. When I talk to any non-signatory now, the first thing out of my mouth is I can know how I can help you make money. Yeah. Now they want to listen to me. Yeah. Not that you have to have me, you need me, you need this. No, no, no, no. I can help make you money. You want to know how? Let's have a conversation. Yeah. Then we then we have a conversation of the things I can do to help them and what I can do and what I can't do. You know, I am limited to some things, but some things I can really go above and beyond to help you out. Especially on, you know, as you know, with these federal jobs and all these other things is we give you a great advantage on that. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting approach because I guess the days of, oh, here comes Paul, man. Lock the doors. Get all the guys out the back. We don't, you know, don't let them talk to nobody. Don't let them talk to nobody, right? Get out of here. Because it was like that. It did feel like that. I mean, I've been doing it for a while. And it was and it was and they would come out here just it was it felt like

They were just like, you know, two or three big guys would come to your office and they just they were almost intimidated, try to intimidate. that's what maybe that's like an impression everybody got out of it. So it is good to see that it's soften up a little bit because and you're right if you start to work with people a little bit more and now you're not talking about just costing them money but helping them make money that's a that's a that's a whole another ball game right so that's a whole ball game. So if you sent uh somebody like say we were a union company and you sent somebody five and five people to go start a project right and one of them was um not showing up on time or seemed like he's been drinking or stuff like this. Uh, is that something you still And I know you guys sound like you guys are almost like a little bit on the HR side to where um you could call up call up like you or the rep and say, "Hey, I got this guy. It's just not working out." And then you guys help break the news to them or is it something we just let him go? How's that work? You just cut him loose and give him back to us and then we have a conversation with him. Why were you let go? Maybe we can work on a few things and if not then then we put them on the naughty list and after a couple contractors have gone through him, then we know not to send that person out anymore. Okay. And you guys kind of dictate to us the worker and who's not because, you know, I could train all day long, but until you to the put the tool belt on and go to work, then we find out who the workers are. Can we have favorite people? I'm I'm just curious about that. Yeah, of course. I have favorites. Everybody has favorites. You know, when I ran when I ran work, I had people I call all the time. I knew that they were workers. And then I knew that when I got when I get a phone call and when I got when it was really busy and I knew when I got somebody I was like, "Oh, he's going to be the first one I let go because he's not that good." So soon as I had an opportunity, he was gone. Yeah. I had that moniker for a while. I was the angel of death. I laid everybody off. So when they knew when they came to my job, they were in trouble. It's rough. It's rough. And it's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest thing to do for us, you know, because because we um in our industry, we're really focused a lot on culture as well and building the culture and and you know, making them part of the family and part of the team and we we know we don't it's a real big push to not call them employees and all this stuff and then and then that gets tough is when you got to let someone go because if you get so close to them like they are family and you do all this, it's it's it's rough. But I think that you guys helps it sounds like you guys help them kind of remind them that it's a business and uh and you know you want the employees to make money, the business to make money and and of course in the end you guys will end up making some money doing the same thing with us. Yeah. And then you know and we do have a lot of different avenues to help them too. So if you did have a drinking problem on my app I have a phone number that they can just hit and it gets them into resources that are in network that will help them out with their either mental crisis, family crisis, marriage counselor, all that kind of stuff. I have on a a push button on an app that I can also with a push button turn it into Spanish. So, we're able to help our members and help help the contractors in the same route is I'm getting these people the mental health. I'm taking care of them up my loss of time benefits. So, now when they get hurt at home, they're not limping to a job and pretending like they got hurt on a job because I'm paying a thousand bucks a week to sit at home because they got hurt at home. So, that they're not coping the contractors. Yeah. And that's really changed the culture around here, too. You'd be surprised how much money I spend on that. But the contractors appreciate it because now they're not getting bogus comp claims and stuff like that on them because we're taking care of our own members. You know, when I when they're sick, I can take care of them now because I have this benefit that I can give them which we all pay into through the healthcare. And I also for our contractors, I open it up that their office staff can join our healthcare. So that helps them out even more. And the contractors freaked out when I did that. Like you do that for us. I thought I said we were partners.

Or partners. I'm opening it up to you guys, too. And I've had about 15 contractors take me up on it already that have joined our healthcare with their office staff. I love that. Yeah, I'm a big I'm a big big promoter of uh our industry getting more healthcare. I mean, we we started FWA Health at our end for the association side of it. Um, you know, obviously it's not tied into the union stuff, but uh we've got now hundreds of people that have health insurance in our industry that didn't have it before. And I think that changes um like what you guys are doing. changes it changes the quality of your employees too because now they you know they they start maintaining their health and they're more likely instead of being gone for you know four or five days they're out for a day or two because they can get their antibiotics or get something and they're back to work sooner and they're getting their checkups and maybe you know what I mean it's not there wasn't like a month of them not feeling good before they did get sick right so it's a it's a big deal it's a big deal so um I know this is changing right um about going straight into the union versus college or people that you know are you seeing a push or even any kind of a lot more people that already went to college coming into the unions. Has it changed from when you first got into this? Oh, it's funny how how things have changed and uh you know and I I can give you a lot of examples and I've seen it firsthand from here in Chicago is they pushed us out of the schools. I want to say it was in the mid 90s we got pushed out of all the high schools. Yeah. And they wanted everybody to go to college. They were getting points for people to go to college. they're getting all their money was coming from people going to college and stuff like that. And then we've noticed within the last five years that with us knocking on doors and approaching them is we've been invited to a lot more schools now, they're opening their doors to us because I think they're finally realizing that this is an opportunity for people, especially less fortunate people who don't have the proper education to get a career where they can actually make real money, have some pride in what they're doing, and have health care for their families. It's it's It it used to be that way that you could, you know, it was union or college college. Well, I'm telling you right now, my last class for the on the building side. I had at least five or six people with college degrees could not find work in the field that they took college and got their degrees in. So, they're here doing iron work and they spent $200,000 in the process and they're in the same place as an 18-year-old kid who just came out of high school. Yeah. with no debt and no nothing and is getting paid to go to work, you know, and it's crazy. You know, it's it's just unbelievable to me. And uh you know, it's some and some people, hey, you got to find yourself and some people come later, some people figure it out earlier. You know, it's I don't judge anybody on that. You know, whatever your thing is, your thing is at least you tried it. I told my kid to try it. My son's in high school in college now. I said he always wanted to be an Iron kid. I go, just try it. You know, that way you won't have to look back and go, I should have at least tried it for a year. So, at least try it and see how you like it. And this will be here. We've been here since 1903. We're not going anywhere. I think I think the Iron Work is a pretty strong union. We're not going anywhere. We'll be here for a while. But I am happy to see that they're um you know, that they are starting to train. They're starting to recognize because I think there's a big push in our industry to validate the fencing industry. It's not it's not a handyman trade by any means. And um you know sometimes hardest working people in the business. I'm going to be honest with you. They're hard they work harder than our building guys. They're tired when they leave here. Bust their ass. They work. They work. So So I think it's good because I mean I think for sometimes people think that um if you want to validate an industry it's all done through policy. And that part is just frustrating for me. And I'm like no you could create as many rules, laws, regulations as you want. It doesn't make an industry um doesn't make an industry more valid or you know it doesn't make it a stronger. But stuff like this training and actually and when the unions start

Recognizing it that also helps right it starts realizing that it's uh it's not something that and because I think a lot of it went over to labor's union as well and um now it's nice to see the iron workers you know although they could you know in the beginning they were the ones that should have been doing it they just weren't they had nobody to do it and it was going over into other trades so I love to see that we're claiming our our industry right right on 100% it's it's been since the beginning it's iron fences have been around since the beginning so It's nothing new to us and a merristar fence is really going crazy around here. Holy cow are they throwing that stuff around here. But you know it's it's it's part of the industry and it and I think the iron workers are embracing especially because when I go around talking and give my speeches when I tell them how many manh hours I pull in just fence alone they're like holy cow are you kidding me man we hit it hard man we we ain't fighting around I want it all. I want all the fence. I want everybody to be a part of this. I want everybody to win and everybody wins when everybody's a part of it. So that's awesome. So um to kind of wrap it up, how would people get a hold of you? Obviously they can come see you at the fence show. So that's your first place you should go. Come to the fence show in Las Vegas. Go to fenceshow.com, get your passes, come and see see them in person and actually sit down and have a 20-minute conversation. And I think you told me a story. Somebody walked up and said, "Hey, can I have a few minutes of your time?" And by the time they were done, they were at your booth for 20 30 minutes, right? Yep. Oh, yeah. He was. And he he was anti-UN as they get too. And he goes, "You got three minutes." I said, "That's all." And he looked out at his watch. He goes, "You got me." I said, "I told you what you wanted to hear, right?" Go, "Yes, you did." All right. So, how how else can they get a hold of you or um the unions or is there a safe address you could put out here for everybody to get a hold of or a website? Well, you can look on You can look at our website, which is www.iwlo663.com iwloc63.com and then uh feel free if you want to email us at info in ninfo iwocal63.com and uh we can get you whatever you need and uh whether it's training whether you want to be a member whether you want to be a contractor and no matter where you are in this country if you contact us I will get you into the place of the right people who can have that conversation with you and just because you're not in the Chicagoland area doesn't mean you can't be a signatory contractor with me and go and work somewhere else. Okay. So, if you wanted 63 to be your home base because you like how great we are, then that'd be fantastic and we'd be your home base. And I've done that for a few people. There's a couple people who probably have never been in Chicago, but they're a local 63 contractor just because they like what we're doing and they want to be a part of what we are. And I don't mind doing that either. That's interesting. So, um, if you're in an area where there's another one, you can actually kind of get you can bounce around the country and do projects all over the country and be a 100% a member of one local and be working in another. It's all part of the one big brotherhood you want to call it, right? That's why you pay into the big brother of the mothership. We can all we're all part of the same thing and Canada's part of us, too. So, we have all Canada and all of the, you know, United States. So, we're all over the place. And I met with the Hawaiian guys in California last week. So, they're interested in fence and stuff, too. So, if you guys want to go throw some fence in Hawaii, which wouldn't be so bad, right? Always between 60 and 80. Yeah. Not too bad. Yeah. break time would be okay on the ocean. I'm good. Yeah, doesn't sound bad to me at all. It wasund like 12 yesterday or something. So, 60 to 80. It doesn't sound bad at all. So, we just dropped that information in the comments and then shared it up here for everybody that's watching. So, um does that information look correct to you? Yes, sir. Awesome. Um hey, you know what? We will see you in a few months and I'm sure we'll be talking uh soon before that. But, uh thank you for coming on. Any last minute things you want to send out there to everybody? Yeah, I just want to say, you know, try to have an open mind when you uh when you think about us moving

Forward. Um I think you'll find us a lot more user friendly than we were in the past. And I believe that we have a superior workforce that we're ready to put out there for you guys. And I like I said, I think it's just it's a better atmosphere and it's easier for a contractor to have a workforce that can come and go as he needs them instead of trying to figure it out because figuring it out on the run is no way to run a business. Yeah. And when someone can take care of your workforce, take care of the healthare, take care of the pension, take care of all that stuff for you. You don't get any of those phone calls no more. I get them all. And and I'm the one who takes the bullets. So you get the call call Wendy. That's all you got to say. Oh, that was awesome. Hey, Paul, I think we did a pretty good job on this interview. Um, can you call and have them release my wife and kids from the van out front now? I'll be happy to. Thanks again, man. I'm excited about I'm excited about seeing you guys. All right, everybody uh everybody that watched this live, thank you and thank you for the comments. And uh if you're listening to this later on, uh drop some comments and we'll try to reply back um to those as well. Thank you everybody and have a good evening. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate you, Brian. Thank you, sir.