A Lifetime in Fencing and What Comes Next

Hey,

Hey.

All right. All right, everybody. It is Thursday, the new time. I know you're just seeing this for the first time. We made some announcements. This the the new showtime is Thursday at 3 PM. Uh it just worked better for a lot of people's schedules. Um, and uh, plus a lot of people back east are up late uh, to launch it at 4:30. So, you wouldn't think that extra hour and a half made a difference, but we have a special guest. Uh, very, you know, it's it's like having a that's why we said lifetime of experience on the announcement. It's like having a lifetime of experience on the podcast at once. So, Tony, uh, thanks for coming on, man. How you been? Uh, life is good. All you're saying is I'm old. That's what I hear. Now it's experience looking for more. Yeah. Yeah, we we'll we'll tie it up with a better bow. But yeah, I'm with you. No, glad to be here. I'm excited about uh getting to connect and uh you know, talk about our industry. So, I appreciate the invite, man. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's been a while, man. I think last time I talked to you was uh Salt Lake City, I think. That's about right. Last time we face to face talked, but uh you've been talking a lot with Veronica um on the education stuff for the full throttle for the fence show coming up. So, full throttle. Yeah, full throttle. full throttle, man. You've been going full throttle. I mean, I I don't think I've seen anybody as active as you uh probably in a long time. I mean, you when I first met you, you were the executive director of AFA and uh I remember I saw you in my uh inbox uh LinkedIn, I think the first time we actually were were speaking. I kept seeing Tony Thornton. I didn't know I didn't even know the difference between the executive director and the president or a board member. I mean, I didn't know what any of that meant, right? So, which is which is ironic right now with FWA, but I was like and then and everybody's like, "That's Tony Thornton." Everybody knew who you were, which was kind of cool. Then we ran into each other one of the shows, but you've been doing a lot since then even. I mean, you you had, you know, you you had a long run with AFA. So, what's been going on um since then? Yeah, I tell everybody, you know, this consulting gig that I did back uh you know, in 22, uh the foundation of my engagement with AFA for all those years really gave me this opportunity. Uh but uh yeah, eight plus years with AFA uh back in 22 started the uh Thorn Fence Consulting Group. I I I I tell everybody I thought it was going to be a semi-retirement part-time do one every now and then support people when they called and then it blew up. It was just like, oh my gosh, I got I got more consults and more opportunities than than I ever expected. I count those as blessings. uh you know so um I I think that you know through our industry you know um AFA offered me those opportunities you know to to get out there to meet people and and share you know some experiences so uh the consulting went strong for you know three plus years uh as you know Brian you and I had a very face-toface county conversation that I was pulling the reinss back on the consulting because there was another opportunity that presented itself and I went down that path with our uh fencing supply group, you know, no no no no no uh no need to not not to to tell everyone about that, but uh corporate gig, I called it the corporate uh you know, here in the Dallas Fort Worth market, overseeing 10 branches and um what was a great 12 month opportunity and um felt like we moved the needle a little bit on the branch changes and some things that they needed and um uh as you've probably seen, my social media content has really beefed up over the last couple of two or three weeks. So, we're getting back to what Tony enjoys, and that is helping our industry, educating our industry, being support, and just being, you know, that consultant and that mentor, that coach for our for our industry. So, yeah, full circle. It's been good, but I'm ready to get back to being Tony. Yeah. Well, I'm Well, I'm I'm glad you did because, you know, I was uh I went to Home Depot and bought a little mirror because I hadn't heard from you in a I was going to go check on you and I just kind of put in there and see and see what was going on, make sure you were still alive because you kind of you kind of just I mean you were everywhere

And then all of a sudden it felt like for a little while there wasn't wasn't posts. There wasn't a lot going on. So, um I would once Veronica said you and her were talking, I was like, "Man, that's awesome." Like, I don't have save me an airline ticket and No, it's good, man. I appreciate you know a lot of folks checked on me. Hey, Tony, where you at? Hey, I'm still here. we're still doing, but just we're just not as visible, you know. So, again, I like to use we pulled the reinss back. Uh we kind of regrouped uh put the effort and the focus on what fencing supply group needed me to do. And uh now that you know we've negotiated out of that contract and and working our way back into our consulting, uh that's where we beefed up everything. Of course, I saw the uh the show event. is coming and I reached out to um Susan and Veronica say hey I want to be part of this you know it's time and um I I almost like okay Veronica put me in coach and it was like are you kidding me you give me a laundry list of like 10 things to do I'm excited um you know a different a different viewpoint from you know full throttle concept uh that Veronica and the team is bringing to the table uh that's going to be interesting but I think it's going to be exciting for the attendees and definitely for the um for the presenters, you know, the uh the spokesperson, so to speak. It's a little different, but I think it's going to be exciting and new and I think it's going to be well wellreceived. Yeah. And I I I think as much work is going into the education this year um than actually almost putting on the show. I mean, but in the end of it, we should have um a lot of good content, especially I think in the past, we've always just said, "Hey, Tony, would you like to come?" and you would be like, "Yeah, I'll teach on this or I'll do on this." And then it was lots of overlap and then it was it wasn't really maybe the um and and sometimes it's great content, but maybe sometimes it's not always catered to that. And I think sometimes our audience is that fresh. And you know, we we do a lot of work to find people that have never been to a trade show. Maybe it's one truck, two trucks. And you know, going in, you know, we're trying to show people what numbers are. And while some people are saying know your numbers. So, you know, if you get into a a a third third level accounting class on a guy that doesn't even never even activated QuickBooks yet, it's just a waste of his hour and a half. Oh, I agree. I agree. I love the concept. Veronica and I spoke about it. I actually had Alexa Churchwell, one of our associates, on the phone with us. Of course, Veronica and Alexa, you know, have really close relations, you know, through their industry. And um uh Alex and I both left the call really excited about you know the opportunity and um we're we're we're pumped to be there. Now now the work starts. So Veronica sent me all the content. Said, "Okay, here's your instructor manual. Tell me what you like, what you dislike, what can we add, what can we take away." Uh so yeah, she put me to work real quick. So I'm excited about it. That's cool. Um tell me about Alexa, though. I mean she's worked with you for a long time because I believe when I first started the association we talked about her I think um so I mean it so she's been help she's been working with you side by side on a lot of stuff now this Canada as well probably right and a bunch of other stuff going on yes uh Alexa and I got to know each other uh when I became the executive director with AFA uh back in 2014 uh eight year plus I tell everybody she was my right hand you you know, I mean, she knew logistically and operationally, I mean, Alexa's just got it focused and and does a tremendous job. And um, you know, after I semi-retired, I was gone a couple of years and then, uh, Alexa and AFA parted ways and said, "Hey, there's other opportunities there." I picked up the phone and said, "Hey, if you want something to do, I got something for you to do." And she said, "Well, heck yeah. Let's make this happen." At that same time, we had just negotiated the contract with the Canadian Fence Association to manage their their their organization. So, man, you talk about perfect fit, you know, like, okay, Alexa, here's Canadian Fence Association. Run it. You know, I'll get on the calls. I'll do what I need to do to support you, but you know what to do with association work. So,

It's just been a great relationship. and uh she brings so much, like I said, logistics, operational, fence knowledge, honestly, fence industry, and even management knowledge to to the table. Um, and and she's really helped us grow the Canadian Fence Association. We've grown membership, we've grown the event, uh, you know, all all those pieces of the puzzle that she brought to the table. So yeah, she and I have been I guess it's been four eight 14 no eight 10 11 12 12 plus years now that uh we we've worked together. Knock on wood because that's not easy to find anymore, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But she and I think a lot alike and especially when it comes to help helping out, you know, the industry and and trying to improve things. So u and of course you know we got Mike Gullage as another associate that works with us and he does a lot with the tech Thorn fence consulting group on the gate operator training and those type things and supporting backup for me you know when we got to do follow up with the consults and all. So we've got a really good team you know it's small but it's powerful. That's what I like to say you know. Yeah. So I think in a way you laid you kind of laid the foundation a little bit for the direction in the industry part of it anyway. you know what I mean? That the direction industry is probably still going with the work that you did in 8 10 years over at AFA. So, I think I think you woke it up a little bit, you know what I mean, as well. And you were pretty active. So, um, like I said, back when we first met, I mean, it's, uh, definitely the conversations we had was some of the best I had in the industry. But, I appreciate that. Yeah. And Tony, quick question as I was listening to because Brian tends to drown me out. I don't get it on Australian no what's listed you but tell me a little bit because that's interesting the Canadian move you know you're at AFA then you you know helped out in Canada how was that transition is it very different to I'm assuming it's very similar um but also different at the same time it is it's very similar uh the way that the Canadian Fence Association opportunity came around was um I was the first year that I became a consultant I was requested to be a keynote speaker at the Canadian Fence Association event in Niagara Falls. Uh I tell everybody the story. I actually had to get a passport. I I I was 60some years old and had never had a passport. I had to get a passport to drive from New York over to Niagara, right? So I got to show my passport. I was so excited. But u spoke as a keynote speaker and got to know a lot of those guys and uh you know individuals. And then the next year I was at FenceTech. We were doing the show and a lot of those board members came up to me and said, "Hey, Tony, uh, you know, great to have you this last year. Wish we could have had you back this year. We had a a scheduling conflict. Couldn't make it the second year, but it was just like she uh uh the president at the time uh he says, "Would you be interested in running uh the Canadian Fence Association?" I looked at him. I said, "Wow, that that's okay. that was out of the blue, but uh let's have a conversation. So, finished up the show, had the conversation, uh did the due diligence on what it was going to take and how it looked. Uh you know, Canadian Fence Association, FWA, AFA, they're all in it for the right reasons. Let's help the industry, right? Let's help the the members first and let's help the industry second because that that goes hand in hand. But uh they just had not had any strong management uh you know of what they were trying to accomplish. Had really not had a strong strategic plan. Uh you know we brought a lot of the uh concepts of what it looked like to the table. We told them and showed them some examples and they said yeah let's do this. One thing that they had never done well was education. So we've got the Canadian Fence Association certification programs that we're doing now. Uh we brought all of the certifi all of the education protocols on fence installation, gate operator training, uh business um you name it. Uh we're building out a standards protocol for for for uh cana Canadian industry right now through a committee. So we got a lot of good positive uh things going on and we were very blessed to have the largest uh summit they call their their fence tech their fence show the summit. we had the largest summit this past year uh you

Know uh that they had ever held and and it was it was just phenomenal. So we see the growth uh we we got a lot of good support from from the board and from their members and uh it's always going to be a small group simply because of the geographical layout that they have up there. But Sasha they're excited about what they can do for the Canadian industry just like we're excited about what we can do for the you know the states industry. So yeah it's a good fit. Yeah. And a lot I don't know if I ever told you, you know, I had I had a couple trucks up in Canada. I was going to relocate a couple vehicles and uh some of my wife's family moved up there and stuff and and I love it. It's beautiful. I mean, you've been up there visiting. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I got temporary residency. I got a Canadian driver's license. I set up a company and uh a couple trucks. And then it was 2019 and we did our first couple. What's that? Canadian Tire like Canada tire and a couple. We had some We were We were getting some accounts. I just did one for them and another seafood restaurant and then COVID hit and then I had to and even even with I was I was able to go back and forth because of my temporary residency because the company and stuff that I set up, right? And yeah, but I still had to go there and then had to sit in the house that I had there for like two weeks before I could leave the house regardless of whether all that. So I'm like, man, this ain't going to work. Uh, I used to fly up on Wednesday like they had like some airlines on I don't remember what the name of it that would fly in my house was like uh Swoop Airlines. I don't know if you ever heard of that. Swoop it was called. So it was like 30 40 bucks. It would fly in on a Wednesday like kind of like an Allegian thing where it fly in on a Wednesday, but there was only one other day would leave like on a Sunday. One day in, one day out. Yeah. So So you could go and uh work for a few days and kind of run and have my uh brother-in-law up there, but I can't go. I couldn't go there for two weeks. So, it kind of just dissolved it all. Canada is, you know, when I think of Canada, it's kind of like where we were in the 80s when it came to uh almost like the regulations on the fencing and the licensing, the it's really tied together though, really well. Like, it's one portal, one portal to get your business license, get your licensing, set up for your workers comp. I mean all really synced really well together but it's like it at the same time it's really synced well together and the state kind of or the country owns the workers comp and all I mean it's just it's different but it it it some of it works right yeah it's like one big union or something for it was a cool and t I know your experience because you know we're my background now is was fly um and Evan Gardner had a question that popped up which I think is a cool question because he asked Um, there it is. Thank you. I have a lot of folks in Canada wanting my products. I just don't know how to sell or ship it. So, what we've come across from the US side, um, we can't ship into the Canada. It's very hard. You have to be broken in Canada. So, there's really good people, Evan, um, out there that, you know, you can partner up with that will take your products and they'll broker it for you cuz it's super hard. We We got stuck at the border. I thought, "Oh, it's just a truck. I'm sending across the border, you know, can't be that hard. Oh, that train stuck, got stopped, and then thank thank goodness to one of my clients, he helped me get it across and from then on, I've just used him to bro like I will sell it to him and he'll sell it to because that was the one hard thing from a supplies perspective, selling into Canada. Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult going both ways, especially with our new tariffs that are in place. Okay. you know, just I mean, let's just put it on the table. The tariffs are hard uh and expensive, but the key to to that, Sasha, is exactly what you said. A good broker that outlines exactly what we're trying to get in. Okay. There are going to be costs associated with that brokerage firm and then there's going to be costs on top of that for the tariffs, right? But it's all it's all relationships. I mean everything that we do is based on relationships and you got to find the good relationships in order to make that happen, you know. I mean, I

Know Evan quite well. He's got a great product and phenomenal, you know, concepts of things. Uh, you know, we could connect him with the right people uh in in in the Canadian market that are are wholesalers and distributors. Uh, at the same time, they already have those brokers and people in place. So, all we got to do is back door, so to speak, to make the connections. And I love getting people connected. So, uh, you know, offline, uh, certainly Evan and I need to connect and and see if we can get them, uh, you know, uh, with the right people to to to make some things happen for them. That'd be awesome. Yeah, I found for us, we do a fair bit in Canada, but through one supplier that, you know, like you said, Tony, real great relationship. Shout out to Okay Vinyl. I love that team and Brad and his team been very good to us. Um, and that sort of we just fell in it, you know, like a lot of things in fencing, you just sort of go, "Hey, I'm at the border now. What am I going to do?" You know, but it's um there's definitely a way. I feel like the Canadian market, too, is it's it's a market that's a little bit um I would call it island, but we have the border. Um, I find it's easier to ship in through port than it is to cross the border. But I think we can do, you know, there's a lot we can do together. You guys got it all wrong. You guys got it all wrong. But you guys know how this works. Kind of like what JC Guri does. You use UPS, but you It's all samples, you guys. You got to call it a sample. Load of samples. All that all those green tools that Evan's going to use there. The wing tools can probably go samples. Don, don't don't don't break because of me. All right, let me Where's that disclaimer, Susan? Put one across there that I'm not telling everybody to You're right, though. It's it's the relationships like Brad. I mean, I've I've known Brad for many, many years. Actually went up there and did a big training event at his facility for the Canadian Fence Association. Uh phenomenal interest, phenomenal engagement. What I found about the Canadian industry, a little bit different than what what we have here in the States, is it's fragmented. you know, you've got a group of a large metropolitan area here, here, and here, and here, and there's so much ground in between that you just can't cover them, right? So, the the large metropolitan areas are the keys. Uh, it won't ever be the size of a FWA or an AFA or even a NAFA, you know, but I mean, those guys that are part of that are engaged, they're focused, they want to help. And right now the biggest challenge is getting their Canadian fence standards to where everybody's on the same page and and that's been a big challenge for them. So one guy goes out and puts a fence in using, you know, an 065 wall thickness and this guy says, "Well, I'm going to quote it with a schedule 40." And there's no standard. So, you know, you know, we can talk standards all day long, but at the end of the day, it it it puts everybody on the same page with a fence product standard that everybody's bidding the right thing. Apples and apples is what we say, you know, oranges and oranges. Uh but that's been one of the biggest challenges. And they only had a chain link somewhat commercial standard. They didn't have any other standards for any they don't have any other standards for any other discipline of our fencing industry. So I I think it's going to be an interesting uh you know opportunity for the standards group uh excuse me the standards committee through the CFA that's working on all of that uh to bring in the right people get but this is the perfect opportunity to get it right on the front side right ask all the right questions you know so I'm excited I'll just try to facilitate it the wood fence up there too it's a lot of panels so they use a lot of panels on the wood fence and then you come down here and it's like you you grab a truckload of wood panels and everybody just tears you apart But up there it right. I mean, they lose their minds if you uh show up. If they see you out installing wooden panels, right? I don't care if this was the best quality wood you could find on the planet and you grew the trees yourselves and you you milled it and it was the most beautiful. There wasn't a knot in it. They would still tear you apart because it was a panel, right? Up in Canada, it's it's almost all panels. I mean, they you know, and it's they're not that quality either when you see them.

No. No. But Brian, you you travel the US. I mean, there's segments of the uh states that use panel built type fencing uh versus what I call stick built, you know, everything stick built, you know, and then and then you got the the no digs and the dig and cement and the dry mix and all the other things. I just keep telling everybody there's room for all of it, man. Do what you like to do. Uh tune it up, get it efficient. Let's make some money, right? I mean, you know, it at the end of the day, the goal is to make some money to to to enjoy life. And um, you know, there's a lot of people that do every bit of it a little bit different, but at the end of the day, it's still the quality of the fence is still there on the other end. I'll tell I'll tell you one thing, Tony. If you needed me to build you a wood fence in your backyard and you wanted it straight, you want me using panels. That's your best chance of getting a straight fence out of me. I'm right the opposite. But if you wanted me to build you a straight fence in in in California, I would I would I would I would have to peace mill it, right? I don't even know if I have the tools to build one. It's all steel and chain. I think give me a 20 foot tall fence, no problem, around a building, no problem. Give me 50 ft of wood fence in your back ls about different regions, different concepts, different methods, end result, still positive. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Yeah, that's So, um I I I did want to bring this up a little bit. I mean, I know things have changed since we we we talked off camera a little bit about um you know, when we started doing sales and we both did. I mean, I know I we think we all we all know that you know, you were younger and you you got picked up and uh by that gentleman that said, "Hey, you're going to go build fence." And that's happened to have been a family friend for you, but for most of us, it was our uncles or our fathers or something like that. and you weren't really, it's not like you went out and applied for the job and you said, "Hey, I'm going to go build fence for the rest of my life. You can stay in the business." It's just, you know, it happen stances across it somehow. But, um, back then it was different. I mean, I mean, we when we did a sale, you obviously moved beyond that installing or just digging holes and being yelled at by, um, by some event. We moved past that and eventually we're doing sales, right? And when we all started doing sales, it was different. I mean, you had a tablet, you got a phone call, and you know, tell me about your experience when you first the first time you did a sales call. What was that like? Oh, I'll just say that the industry has it really good now. Okay. So, let's go back 40 plus years, you know, early 20s. Uh, not only, you know, installing fence, but dual purposing, doing a little sales. Okay. uh you know it was a piece of you know it was a it was a a binder a spiral binder you walk in the backyard you draw it out you know and then you will it off or you use a tape and then you ask customer all the questions you know I mean we had some pictures to show but at the end of the day we had to go back to the office to figure out what they needed right and we only offered like five or six different things this was the basic wood fence oh basic shadow box and here's your 4ft chain link fence, right? So, uh, you know, I guess it was as old school as you're going to get because it just all had to be done manually. There wasn't even spreadsheets in place back then that could do the calculations automatically. That was just when CFS was really getting strong, okay, which is now our FenceCloud product. But the CFS product was still in really early stages, right? We had it uh but then the buildout was like cumbersome as it could be. But you're right, Brian. I mean, things have changed and evolved. The technology that we have available to us right now, I mean, you know, from from 3D uh looking at a fence in a backyard before you even sign off on it. The technology and estimate, man, give me an estimating software like an art site, like a job nest, like a contractor accelerator. The list goes on of all those that are out there. Back when we were in the industry selling, man, we'd have been outperforming everybody, right? I mean, it would because we knew what we needed to do. We were installers, so we knew what questions to ask and we knew what we were visually

Looking at. Give me a tool like that and man, I I probably would have been retired by now, you know? Well, because you got No, I think because you'd have sales people using the tools instead of order takers using the tools. And there's a difference because you still got the sales mentality while you're using the tools. So I think that's and we had to be sales people back then. Let's face it. I mean you I mean if you went out there even if even if it if it was something we could figure out we hand wrote the quotes up and we draw it out. Absolutely. Use a business card whatever we had to draw. I mean, isn't it amazing if you go back what we could draw with a business card and and a pen or a pencil and right and anything, right? And from McDonald's and this is true. It was almost like blueprints on a on a quote. And it's it's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. It's the old and I won't say the oldest. I think we were we had to be really relational back then like immor not that we're not there now great sales people today are out there and they understand that concept but when you sort of walking in looking at someone right there and it was very in your eyes handshake you had you had that moment that you had to create a relationship more than ever because nowadays while there is a relationship to create I feel like the screens stop at being as number one it's like, "Okay, Mrs. James, I've got it. Here's your drawing. I can have it to you." Like, I'm drawing it, right? These guys are drawing it right there and then. Here's your bid right there and then on the spot. I feel like what we had to do was that relational like really hardcore like push and you know, maybe have to come back three times where now it's I don't know if it's harder or easier now. I think it might be the other way cuz now it's like you've got technology that speeds everything up but it takes away that really important step of that relationship. I know what you think about that. I I agree with you to some extent because back 30 40 years ago truly you needed to establish that trust and that relationship almost immediately. It was that handshake. Okay. We've got tools in place now that we don't even have to have the customer there. Right. So, I'm I'm I'm a relationship guy. I mean, I may not remember the name, but I will remember the face and I'm going to shake a hand every time I see somebody. There's something to talk about, right? And that's what was expected of us back then because we were salesmen that was going to meet a client, a customer, and they wanted to hear what we had to say because we were the professional. We are the professional. We we're the specialist right now. Okay. It's we're living in this. Okay. pass on that screen, move on to the next one. We're living in immediate, you know, access time now. And that's what they're expecting now. Do y'all agree? You know, so the speed of quote, the speed of estimate, those type things have changed our industry completely. I tell everybody through my consults, man, if we're not quoting them on the doorstep, we're missing an opportunity. If we're not closing while we're there, we're missing on an opportunity. the days of going back to the office and figuring it up. Uh the worst case scenario should be you go to your truck, you pull up your app, you put that quote together, you email it to them, and then you take it back up there because you got a printer under your back seat and you're showing them what to do. The the days of carving copy, okay, she that we grew up with, it ain't happening these days. Okay, now I got a I actually got a client that still does that. I ain't changing, Tony. That's that if you like it, I love it. Right. But I think the era of time uh demands on people's time, technology has definitely changed the way our industry uh h has moved along. And it's not all bad. Yeah, it's good. But I think that um I mean I love I I embrace technology as much as anybody. I mean I mean I think the big the big change was uh it wasn't even Excel. Um you know, we're talking about some of the other spreadsheet programs. Lotus, Lotus, 123 and and all those those spreadsheet programs. They first thing that was a game changer because then we could create our own estimating programs and we could we could actually draw a quote form up and then we had dot matrix printers and those dot matrix printers by the way

Would print on our carbon. Do you remember those? It would

And it would go all the way through them. So, hey, look here. Look here. I still have I still I still got one. It's four four sheets deep, man. Four sheets deep. I I pull this out when I show people what technology can do for them. We moved away from this four sheets of carbon copy to technology that will do it for you and never have to press the pin real hard. Okay. So, yeah, I keep this just because it it's just such a, you know, a reminder, I guess, you know. So Tony, that leads leads us into this like this question then because we're talking about, you know, you two back in the dinosaur era and then all of us other guys as we growing up, but what what's the big change like where is fencing going? I know this is a very broad question, but where do you think cuz I mean you two, especially you and Brian put together um and the experiences you experienced back in your days. Then I, you know, I got into fencing about 2011 and I know it was different then it changed. We went from more package stuff like more cookie cutter panels like iron, you know, we saw the big change and now fast forward to today like what do you where is fencing do you think going like where are we at as a as an industry at the moment or where we headed? That's a tough question. That that is a hard question and it's going to be a little bit different throughout the country. But I will say this, our industry is has for the last 12, 15, even 20 years been on an uphill trajectory of profitability. Okay, growth. I would say growth. Um, yes, we all know that residential has slowed down considerably here in 2026, but look at what the commercial market did. It absolutely exploded. Um, COVID changed everything about the way we thought we needed to do business, right? And we're still reaping the benefits from that. We're also reaping some of the headaches and challenges from that. But at at the end of the day, those individuals, well, I would say this, the individuals that are running fence companies today are not what it was 20 years ago. It was the Brians and Tony's that come from the fencing industry. We grew up in it and oh, now we're going to decide we're going to run a business. I had a great conversation with a client today. He said, "Tony, most fence contractors are good craftsmen, but they're not CFOs and CEOs." Right? So, that's where we come into play to help them understand how to how to run their business more efficiently and profitably. But, we've got those efficient and profitable people now saying, "Hey, I'm going to buy that fence company. That that's pretty cool." The key to it is finding the right fence guy or gal to put in there to make that work, right? So I don't know that uh our our our industry is ever going to take a downward you know uh trend. I think we will continue seeing that 10 12% growth every year which has kind of been the industry uh growth. Uh but the way that we do business will continue to change with as much acquisition and private equity money that's being thrown at our industry right now, the home services industry as a whole. Uh you know the the the the guys like Jerry Jeffcoat. Okay. 80s something years old, still going to work every day that I grew up with. Uh, you know, those guys are what I would say are are are just some icons that, you know, we had to learn how to do it from them in order to get where we are right now, right, Brian? I mean, what what's your take on it? I mean, you know, you've seen it over the years. I mean, you started your company. You grew up in the industry. I mean, I I I've, as everybody knows, I worry about I worry about the industry. I worry about protecting what makes it great and what we have. And that made it able for for me to be able to do the fence company for anybody to get into our industry. And for that guy to say, I'm tired of driving a forklift at Southern Line Spirits. I know how to build fence and I'm going to I'm going to start doing it on the weekends and then grow into, you know, me, I believe if we got someone crazy enough to dig holes with us, we need to turn him into a full-time fencer, right? I mean, I I don't believe we should chase him off. So I I worry that um that the opportunities won't be there for that guy that just wants to build. I mean, let's face it, the industry what what I see, we all we all think different things about the industry is great. And what I think is great about the industry is you take David Gado, what's his name?

David Guy from David. I mean, think about him. I mean, he's a prime example. And not just him, but other people is he's built a life for himself and his family and his kids that and now his kids hopefully will it change the life of all those people. And the reason he was able to do that was because of how the industry is structured now. And as we see more consolidation and as we see, you know, overregulations and all this stuff, I think we make it harder and harder. And while while I'm, don't I'm established, so I'm on the same boat. I mean, I for if you look at me as Brian, what do you want to do to protect Las Vegas fence? Yeah. I want to make it so tough that nobody can get a license and and and Nevada is one of Nevada is the hardest one of the hardest states. Yeah, it is one of the hardest states, you know. And I So, I guess that's what the trajectory going up to answer that real quick. um the trajectory going up. I I wonder if that I mean I remember when a six foot chain link fence sold for $7 a foot. A 5 foot chain link fence sold for $6 a foot. I mean we literally would add a dollar uh for every height of the fence and now it's $25 and $30 a foot. So we see a 12 to 15 or 14% increase in a year. Um was that you know profitability or was that actually just because material costs have went up 15 20%. You know what I mean? Or did was there actually more jobs or was there just less jobs and it cost more to do them? I have this conversation with a lot of contractors every week. Okay. Uh materials cost so much and I remind them what they're paying for materials. Everybody else is paying for it too. within a couple of points. Don't get me wrong, there there's some high volume buyers out there, but within a couple of points, every contractor has to deal with the inflation, the price increase, and even our labor price increase. I mean, come on, guys. I mean, when I started, minimum wage was three bucks, $3.25, right? I mean, look what it is now. You don't even talk about minimum wage anymore, right? We talk about what the market will bear to pay somebody and what it takes for that individual, especially if they're married and have children and and have a house they got to pay for. Those numbers are completely different. So, um I think that everything that we're doing um industry-wise is all market driven. Uh it definitely will be price driven, but those individuals that figure out I can buy material at this, my labor cost is this. I know what margin I got to make to keep my doors open, take care of my team. Those are the guys are that are going to have the success. And that's where a lot of these businessminded people are coming into our industry now and then finding a a Sasha Tony or a Brian to say, "Hey, run this thing for me." Right? And they're making great money, right? So, it's a win-win. Um, what I've been so impressed with over the last, I would say, 20 years, most most specifically, is the tools And then on top of the tools, it's the techniques, [snorts] you know? I mean, it's gamechanging techniques and tools out there now that if we had had those back in our day, I mean, again, it' been like, okay, Katie bought the door. I mean, this is over. You know, we're making millions now, There'd be a lot of guys out there with more fingers. I'll tell you that much. I mean, every time I I teach how to do a cut in gate, you know, a walk-in cut in gate on a wood fence, you know, people like, "I've never cut in a gate." Well, let me show you how to do a cut in gate. And we're doing it with a cordless saw. And I'm like, "Okay guys, this this impact wrench used to have an extension cord on it and the ground was off of it." And I'm sitting here handling it and I'm getting shocked to put the bolt in. You know, the 516 lag bolt. Okay, guys. Y'all don't know how good you got it. It just goes in one ear and out the other because they not they they didn't have that experience. Right. That's why why I appreciate our industry so much is we've evolved. We've changed and we've been good at what we do and we're only getting better and more efficient and hopefully more profitable. So I think it's better. I mean honestly I mean I I go out every once in a while and I got to help somebody do a cage or something. They got an impact and I just remember the fence pliers was everything. I mean you had a pair of fence pliers and your augmenting pliers and that was pretty much it. And then we

Have our pipe cutter, the rigid pipe cutter. And that's what we cut everything with. We cut the top of every posttop. We cut every piece of rail with a rigid pipe cutter. There was no We didn't even have generators. We didn't bring nothing out to the jobs, right? 100% premixed. I don't even know premixed concrete. I don't even know. They may have had it, but we all I know is whoever whatever jerk that we worked for at the time that was mean to us was not going to let us get premixed. We had sand, gravel, and we were I grew up that that's exactly the way I call it hand mix. It was a hand mix. It was a 321 mix, man. If you didn't do 321, every time, you know, we're in trouble, you know. Yeah. Well, you're bringing back some good memories. I love it. And and I think that's why you say something like it's a little different now. I mean, we we went through the abuse and it was I mean, there was nobody to complain to. And I mean, you I remember I I got marks on the back of my leg. I could hit my my uncle Bob would hit me with a pair of fence pliers, but he would get me in the same No, he would get me in the same spot. You know, it was like a target right there and it would just like if I walk back to the truck with nothing in my hand, I mean, I would just carry [ __ ] because I was No, you don't you don't you don't you don't take a step without going in one direction or the other with something in your hand. That's for sure. That's You walked past a piece of scrap on the ground and you didn't pick it up. I mean, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. you you was in for a fussing or a cussing, whichever one I was going to throw at you. Yeah, that's good stuff. Hey, so fill me in on um Thorn Fence Consulting. What's going on with that? Uh what's the I mean, now that you're back on it, I know you're back. Uh you're going to be going pretty soon. Are you still at FSG Group now? Yeah, I uh my contract uh is through the 26th of this month, end of June. Uh they they give me the grace to go ahead and get my marketing back up and running. So that's where you've seen all the social media content. We're real excited about a new uh uh product or or or I wouldn't say product, a new opportunity for our industry called the fence masters group. Okay. Now, this is a mastermind's group that we're bringing to uh to to the industry. It will be a membershipbased uh group where you'll pay a small fee monthly to participate. You pay annually, you get a discount off. But this is going to be for contractors, startups, experience, whatever. I've got my founders group being drafted right now. Got a lot of really strong founders. But what that mastermind group is going to do, Brian, is have a monthly call and we're going to talk about something. Uh, you know, price for profitability. And it's not just going to be Tony Thornton. you know, I'll be there to facilitate and pull out the questions, but we're gonna have a Brian or a Sasha or somebody that's had success in that area in their company be that spokesperson to say, "This is what I found." And we're also going to go right in the opposite direction. We're going to find those guys that that screwed it up, those guys that had challenges, that had failures to say, "Let me tell you why I failed. Let me help you not have that failure." So, it's a mastermind group. It's going to be called the fence masters group. I've done a soft launch on the website. It's called joint. It's called the masters. And uh like I say, it'll be a membership based thing. Um I sent out an email today to all my clients to say, "Hey, if you're interested, I'm gonna give you a soft launch here, but we're going 100% live on June, excuse me, uh yeah, uh June 19th. Just in a couple of weeks, a week." What's the website for that? Because I know I know that I promised I wouldn't keep you for an hour and a half. Trust me. It's fine. I've got a few extra minutes. It's just go to Sure. It's fence consulting.com. It's our TFC group. Fencing fencing fence consultinggroup.com. Okay. And then just click on the masters button and it outlines two two pages of what benefits are to be part of this thing. and uh we're going to be introducing it at the fence show in October and hopefully bringing some

People, you know, uh into the booth to say, "Let me share what this is going to be about." Uh but it's a peer-to-peer collaboration group is what it is. And I mean, we know how strong that is, right? So, um people that's been there, done it, and uh willing to share and teach and and and and provide some input. So, I'm excited about it. I I've I've seen it work in other trade industries, uh, landscaping and electrical especially. Uh, and I said, why not for the fencing space, and why not me bringing it to the table? So, uh, we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about it. I think you got a little experience in that. So, we might be able to help a few. We're still going to be doing our consults, too. We're still going to be doing our consults, you know. So, we're going to leave that up. Obviously, anybody that wants to learn more, you can come come talk to him a bit in person about the fence show, you know, coming up in October. So, go to fence show.com and register for that. But we're going to leave this up for Tony uh for fence consulting.com. If you're listening, uh go check that out and get signed up or ask him. I'm sure you can reach out to him or Mike or somebody through there. Sure. But I I want to I the reason I was going to rush on that because I want to get I want to get to these rapidfire questions and make sure we got those in there. Now, these are questions I haven't even seen yet. Oh, is it Sasha? It better not be a setup, dude. I can't even read English as an Australian saying. Good luck understanding these. I've got to really listen to you. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay, here we go. So, what's the most underrated skill in fencing? I think uh lay out and just uh how to do, you know, I mean, think on your feet type thing. I think that's the most underrated. I mean, those guys that can really make a decision real quick because they've been there, they don't, they know what to do. I think it's layout and and and and decision- making. I love it. We'll keep going. These are going to be fast, so I'm going to throw them out. Biggest waste of money in operations. That's a tough one. It's a lot. Just the procedure. The procedure. It's the workflow and the procedure. They screwed it up. But here's one for you for the ages for you guys. Hardest employee to replace. Oh, I know that's not me. It should be us. I I've had to fire a few CEOs through the consults, but uh the hard the hardest the hardest one to to not have is uh the labor, the the craftsman, the installer, right? I mean, those guys are hard to find these days and they're difficult to train because we just got a whole different generation of people. Yeah, it's true. And it's scary. All right, I'll keep going. I got three left for you. Salesperson or installer? Which is harder to find? Salesperson. Okay. I would have gone installer. Can you Why salesperson? I think that the installer I mean you find those individuals that want to be hands-on. You can train them on the installation. It's harder to train a salesperson to understand how to read people. That's just my perspective. Okay. Nice. So different in different c different parts of the country as well. Uh I need a good salesperson, not just somebody that sells it cheap, but sells it for profitable and understands how to make sure we build a strong relationship and take care of the client and that that client's going to call that salesman back in 5 years when they move across town for another fence. That's hard to find in my opinion. No, I like it. That's 100%. Okay, two left. Biggest leadership mistake owners make. getting in the way. I love it. Get your hands out of it. Hire good people, train them, set an expectation, and you can hold them accountable. But if you got to answer every question and you got to do everything, you're going to die right there in the operations room because you got to be involved with everything. So, get out of your own way. Get out of your own way. All right. All right. Hey, that one that one just went right

Through me, Tony. It went right through me. Hey, Brian. But that's the hardest part about being an entrepreneur and an owner, okay? Because it's your baby. You've got it to where it's at. Nobody would have got it there without you because you were the driver. And the hardest part of it is letting go when you hire the right people. It's hard. It's hard. I feel better right after that. I feel better. Everybody was listening just felt better. Keep going. Last lucky last question. Lucky last. One thing you wish you knew 30 years ago. Don't get in the truck. I don't do fence. Don't do fence. I get people all the time call say, "Tony, I'm thinking about buying a fence company." I say, "Man, can I try to talk you out of it?" Uh, repeat that question. Sasha, I want to answer this. Give me that question again. This is a good one. I like this is a great one. contend the nine with one thing you wish you knew 30 years ago understanding people better. I think my people skills I I I wish 30 years ago that I had been a better people skill person. There you go. I I think I've developed that over the years, but man, in my early career, I think that, you know, if I'd been better then, I probably would be better now. You does that make sense? Yeah. 100%. There you go. That's rapid fire. Some good questions. Yeah, that was good. That was good. And and hey, hey, audience that's listening, that was not preset up. We didn't have any idea, right, Brian? I mean, you're gonna have to go rewatch your own answers. You know that. Why' I say that, though? Why would I say that? Let me change that. Right. That's funny. Hey, Tony, thank you for coming on, man. It's always good uh getting to catch up and uh I'm sure we'll catch up some more before October and I'll see you in October. Uh thanks again for uh you know working with Veronica on some of these classes. I know I know it brings another layer of um experience to the uh full throttle education we're doing. So I'm grateful for you um for uh being willing to come down there and uh talk to everybody. So uh thank you for that and for coming on. Well, let me say thank you too, Brian, for the effort and uh and and work that you put in to FWA and getting it to where it's at today. It's making some differences in our industry and uh you know, together we are we grow together as an industry. So, thank you and the team that that's putting everything into it. So, anything that I can do and ever help, you know, I'm there to do it. So, appreciate it. Also, appreciate the invitation to be here today. Thank y'all. You got it. Everybody's listening, go to uh fenceconsultinggroup.com if you want to hear more about his mastermind stuff coming up or if you want to uh bump bump into him at the fence show, go to fence show.com. Uh we will see you guys next week and don't forget we changed the time. It is Thursday 3 PM Pacific time, the only time zone that matters. But uh we'll see you guys next week. Thanks, man. Thanks.