A Billion in Fence Sales and a Brand New Franchise

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All right, we got an exciting episode for everybody that's watching right now. We got Caleb Roth, founder of Stain and Seal Experts in the house. And we got Zack Payton, which is a franchise leader at Super Superior Fence. I was reading your name down there. You got Fence Boss on there. So, it threw threw me for this is why I'm here. But you're still probably one of the best known or well-known names we have in the fence industry um when it comes to franchises. So, thank you for taking the time. Caleb, you as well. Um, I mean, you've taken what was probably a niche for a lot of people and turned it into its own industry, I think, in in a way, right? So, um, anyway, thank you guys for coming on. Uh, I wanted to give you guys a second to tell people who you are. Caleb, uh, go ahead and start with you. Oh, okay. Well, thank thank you. Um, not yet Crown Stain boss, but I'm working on that. So, yeah, my name's Caleb Roth. grew up in the fence business and um it was a family business and I didn't feel like I was making enough money so I started staining fences on the side and um that turned into my full-time thing. So some of you may already know me but uh um I guess here today I'm wearing my stain and so expert shirt that's our service business that we've just recently franchised and we're just about to turn on. So I I think uh I'll let Zach tell the tell his news there. I think this is a perfect um you got somebody doing franchise on ground zero and then you got somebody doing it um on the mountain tops. It's kind of interesting to see our two different perspectives here. Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks. Um yeah, so I'm Zach Payton. I'm the uh the founder and and current brand president of Superior Fence and Rail. Um, and as Caleb alluded to, we've hit a major milestone lately, uh, since we began franchising and since we were the first, uh, I think successful fence franchise in the in the space in the in the United States at least. Um, we just recently hit the 1 billion sales mark. So, since we started franchising in 2017, uh we have we have sold $1 billion in fences. And for those of you who are watching who know like what an average ticket is, that's about 150,000 fences. And then then the average amount of footage, you're like, "Okay, let me do math." Like, that's a lot of footage. So yeah, we've been grinding away at the fence the fence business for uh seven or eight years now and um just hit a major milestone. So thanks for thanks for having me, Brian. Yeah. No, appreciate it. And oh, looks like Yeah, stain boss. You look at that. You've been changed to stain boss, Caleb. Stain boss. Fence boss. Like you earned it. Yeah, you earned it. I'll I'll come back when we hit a billion in sales. Yeah. Zack, what was 201617 is when you started, right? Yeah, that's right. Well, so so no, I started in 2009, right? Okay. Like I came into the business in 2009. So I've been doing this for almost 17 years now. Um which is for a lot of people like like Caleb who grew up in the business, they're like, "Oh, well, welcome to the business, Junior." You know what I mean? like um so it's it's it's a sort of a microcosm for people who have like grown up in the industry but for me I've been doing it for 17 years uh we didn't start franchising until 2017 and so that that sort of like dramatic growth that we've seen happened after 2017 and that was out of Florida if I remember correctly. Yeah, we started in Florida which is a super competitive fence market. Um there's a lot of people who are on the call who' be like, "Oh, well, I've got a competitive fence market." But but no, but but no, really like like Florida's pretty competitive. And uh so we've taken some of the advantages that we've had um coming from coming from a competitive market and then leveraged the model that we created um in other markets and been, you know, I would say like overall very successful around the country. Yeah. And we're going to get into some of the advantages and disadvantages and the pros and cons of franchising. But um before I get into that, Caleb, you're

Out of Tennessee. I've been up to uh where you did the is I you're rebranding a little bit. It's it's uh now Stain and Seal Experts. Was it Expert Stain and Seal at one point or Well, we we have a couple of companies and and the Stain and Seal Experts brand is our service brand. So, so we kicked off our fr or started the process of franchising last year. I think I talked to Zach about it a couple times when I was kicking the tires on it and um we we started that up last late last year and then I sort of hit pause around January or February and said, "You know what? I need to rebrand uh because it's going to be easier to do it now than when we got a 100 locations." Uh so so that was the idea was to to hit a pause. We did rebranding. We got we're getting great traction with the rebranding. I rebranded several years ago in 2015 um the first time and it was amazing. you know, the results were really people started saying, "We see your trucks everywhere. We only had one truck." People stopped arguing about our prices, you know. So, that made it that that was helpful. And so, I I knew I needed to go ahead and do it again. And so, we've hit pause and just finished up the rebrand. And I think our our franchise like goes live like we're turning on the the marketing to say, "Hey, do you want a franchise?" Like, that's awesome. Monday, so fresh. We're brand new. We're going to get into telling people how they can get going um with a franchise if they decide to go that route. Um, or maybe not after we tell them the the pros and cons, right guys? But but I I tell this story, you heard me tell it before uh before the first time I really met you out in in Tennessee, you know, at the Expert Stain and Seal. Was it called the Expert Stain and Seal University then? Or was it? Yeah. So that that was just staining University. It was just kind of like our our own miniature fence tech for the staining industry. That was a Have you been to one of those, Zach? Uh I have not personally been, but I've sent people to that that event. Yep. Yeah. That was one of the coolest things I think I ever went to. You and Ashley and everybody was just really cool. And it was I literally left there and I'm like, man, of course I'm in I'm in the middle of Las Vegas. We just don't have much staining going on. But I'm like, I just want to I just want to shut everything down and get some trucks and start staining. That's how excited I was about stain uh when I left and the systems and everything you got, you know, you guys put in there. But um if somebody want I mean, I know there's a big difference between maybe getting a staining franchise and maybe uh one of yours, Zach. What What does it take to start a franchise? Uh well, you know, for for us it takes it takes a little bit of capital, right? Like like we are um uh you know, like a brickandmortar focused franchise like uh so we want people to buy a lo like like like lease out a location um stock up on inventory. So like I I think our our franchise disclosure document which is sort of like the controlling document that says like hey like like franchising is is very tightly regulated if you can imagine um because like franchising is has been going on for 40 or 50 years in this country. So, it's super tightly regulated and and so the the franchise disclosure document really defines like uh a lot of different things uh a lot of things that we have to disclose about the business. And so like what that document says it takes about a quarter million dollars to start a superior fence and rail franchise. Right. Gotcha. So what about you Caleb? What's it take to do a um one of your your franchises for singing? Um it's a little bit less. So we have multiple models. So we can we can start with a guy in a truck, you know, one one small territory and a guy in a truck or you we have models where you can scale it out and have multiple locations, but you're looking at about a you're looking at somewhere between 75 and 95 grand to start up with one of ours. So it's it's not that um starting a franchise is just a a lower barrier of getting in. I think that uh you know you're it's not like I mean because obviously you could just go get a

Business license and start a fence company or start a staining company, start buying some staining, right? So I think I mean I'll give you my take on on franchises just from me being in the industry and and you know and not my it's not my take based off of what everybody's saying or anything like that. Um, and now this is me now as being, you know, an association leader for the last, you know, few years and what what our what our industry offers people and and what I what I felt it needed to offer people. And and I think that uh like you said, a lot of industries and trades have franchises been going on for forever. I mean, ours probably was a little slower, you know, to catch up on it. And we've seen a lot of the um VC money come in and there's got, you know, there's got to be a way for new people to get into our industry. And I think that in our industry, we kind of dropped the ball a little bit. So, it's not that you guys all kind of snuck in in my eyes. Um, I think that we kind of dropped the ball and we didn't offer some of the stuff the franchises were offering people. And that's kind of on us. I mean, when I'm I'm talking about like some of the supplier connections and the uh training and, you know, the support and things like this when you were a new guy trying to break into our industry, we weren't the most friendly to be honest, you know, for for fencers anyway. So, I think we kind of open left the door wide open for it and then um it just kind of, you know, it kind of grew and you guys are kind of feeling a a niche in a way, a gap that needed to be filled. But, um whether it's good or bad, I don't know. I guess it'll it'll be it'll be told in the end, right, for for the industry when it comes down to it. What do you What do you guys think? Yeah, I mean, look, I can I can say this, like I came in from I've I've seen it both ways, right? like I came into the business um and I I I didn't have the the franchise model behind me in 2009 when I started my business and it was a really tough time to start a a a business just in general, but it also in like home improvement, right? Because 2009 to 2012 was probably like one of the weakest periods economically for home improvement businesses that we've seen. So, um, so I can say that like I kind of had to earn my way in and then like as we started franchising, I went to my vendors and said like, "Hey, listen, I've built up all of this like credibility over time." And so, I'm going to start bringing new people into my model. So, like I had to there was a period of time where we had to really like establish trust between um our vendors and the model. And then like what I've been able to prove over time is that like hey like under our model the the bad debt which is the real scary thing for vendors right like so for for vendors placing their trust in like an unknown uh like new startup is very difficult to do. And so what we've been able to do is say like, okay, well, hey, let's bridge that gap between like how hard it is to trust uh like a brand new business, but but but rather like trust a brand new business that's backed by this like great model. Um, and so we've been able to um kind of bridge that gap with um like like but like but no really like hey, we bought a bunch of stuff and none of the debt went bad, right? So like like we've been able to get terms for new locations um you know buying power for new locations that that that that I didn't have when I got started you know so like for for me like the the proof has been in kind of the pudding right so like hey we've we've we've brought on all these new locations it's it seemed risky at first but like it proved out and and and here we are. So yeah. Yeah. Caleb, um, what do you I mean, for supplier accounts, I mean, when they when they get a a when they get a staining franchise or, you know, when one of your franchises, is it is it is there other accounts beyond just getting the stain and stuff that you help them establish with? Yeah. So, I guess for those that don't know, we we also own expert professional wood care where we manufacture stains and we are the main supplier, actually, stain and seal supply, which is our online store. We've got a couple different brands, but the the Stained Seal Supply is the sole the main provider supplier of products. And so we we would control that. And um but there are obviously you know, you obviously

Need other things from from other places. And we do have some relationships set up. And then there's some stuff you just got to get at Home Depot. But um you know, for for us this the whole you know, Zach talked about building the trust and all that for and and then going through the school of hard knocks. That was the way for me when I started in in my business in the fencing business. We didn't really know how to scale. We hit a million bucks a year and that's where we just maintained that forever. Couldn't couldn't couldn't break through. Didn't know how. Biggest problem for us was we were running 30% margins and we couldn't figure out why everybody else was getting new trucks and Bobcats and we were right. And so so when I started the stain business, I just created a monster in myself of just trying to learn everything I could about business, business growth, principles, strategic planning, all of these things. And I I basically created the staining university and our whole platform of of educating people in our trade to be basically I was just trying to be the guy that I needed when I was coming up. So every time I learned something I just told everybody about it and uh created that collaboration and so years and years of doing that the one the number one question we get is how do we get a stand and so experts solution? How do we do that? How do we buy in? And I was scared to death to do it because I didn't know what to do. Didn't know how to do it. And uh so that's that's kind of how we got started on it. But uh I think I think people are going to get into the industry. Y and so it's it's really nice to to have somebody there that can, you know, pave lay the yellow brick road out for you, right? So I think that's that's kind of what we're looking at is just being being that uh person that we can take new people under under their wings so they can focus on growing the business rather than figuring out how to do the business. Yeah. And it sounds like we've got um Aaron here. He looks like we need to get some uh some stain down to Central Florida, right? Yeah, we're there. Yeah, we're going to pull him up and comment back on his comment. Erin, we'll get back a hold of you uh with where you can get a hold of some of uh either Caleb or somebody or somebody he's got down there for the stain. Um but I, you know, going back to what you guys were just talking about supplier accounts. I think that was a big deal. And this is where I was really disappointed. I mean, and by the way, you sound exactly like I did when I started FWA. I'm like people like, "Hey, what what is this? What is this resource?" Well, these are all the resources I wanted. the FWA health and we just had another meeting in there about bringing three more people in our company um on FWA health because we couldn't afford $800 a month for everybody, you know, and and to keep paying them through even slow seasons and stuff. So, a lot of the resources you see that we did was solely because it's stuff I wanted, you know, and the supplier accounty, but people were struggling to get accounts set up with some of our larger um distributors and stuff. And I think I think and it goes back to what I said. I think that um that's the stuff that maybe franchises came in and did better than we did as an industry. It's not that we haven't been around as associations and stuff and all of us including me that we couldn't went to the many, you know, the suppliers and said, "Hey, we need help negotiating uh better, easier access to the materials and stuff." Yeah. Yeah. So, Brian, I think if I if I could like if I could paraphrase like from your perspective, if you if you credential and certify a business and say like, "Hey, this guy is like FWA certified and they're they're an FWA certified contractor, that should buy them sort of like the clout to go out and and establish accounts with, you know, Stevens Pipe and Steel and Master Halco and Fence Supply Group and like all these other like I I I think it it's if for some reason it seems like it's harder to do that than it is for me to come in and say like, "Oh, okay. Well, I have a superior fence and rail franchise." Like, we've got the bonafide, so like just give us give us the terms and the pricing and Yeah. Yeah. Give give him an account. He has a

New franchise. And I think that was and if you were to go back and see some of my biggest arguments even, you know, in the industry in the beginning was, hey, I'm I'm telling everybody, hey, even the fence shows I'm like, do a f when you're there, do me a favor. Just sign people up. Well, we got a vet. I go, man. I go, I don't know what more you want. This is an FWA member. He joined the Fence Work Association. He bought airline tickets. He bought passes to a fence show. He flew all the way here. He's standing in front of you at an expo. The odds of this being some residential homeowner trying to save uh, you know, $100 on some fence materials is probably pretty slim, right? Uh, check, check, and check. I just vetted that guy for you. So, and like what you're saying, and then you, you know, you can set someone up with a franchise and say, "This guy's a legitimate fence company. Sell to him." So, I think that's what we could have done better as an industry to help our industry out was to get the material supplies opened up. Instead, we tell them all go we don't sell them and then we tell them to go buy Home Depot, Lowe's, and then we make fun of them for buying from box stores. You know what I mean? Well, well, to be honest though, like we we did like I we did have to put some skin in the game for our earliest franchise franchises, right? Like we did have to put like like we had to put some guarantees on the line and say like oh but no hey really like we'll guarantee it you know like like I like I at one point I think I had over a million dollars in personal guarantees out with certain vendors and I'm like ah you know that's fine like you know come get it if it goes bad type thing but like but no really like like hey like I'm I'm willing to stick my neck out and I think like maybe like that might be the difference because like I was actually willing to guarantee the result to a certain extent, you know. Yeah. And I people I don't think see that. They don't see that. They don't see the risk that you guys take, you know. Um Caleb too to do all this and and you know, even you're basically also you're taking your brand and you're trusting people you these that you really don't know as well as you'd know someone for 10 years, right? You're trusting them with your brand and the liability and stuff as well. So, um I think the franchising, like I said, it's it's in it's in it's it's in a lot of the industries and it's here now and I think there's a bunch more that have popped up if I remember. Um that are just I think Susan was just telling me about another one. I don't remember the name of it that came in, you know, that's on the scene now. So, um going back to that though, what kind of training does do you guys get as a franchise when someone when someone buys it? Because I think there's a by the way, there's a image at 76 Fence. She said she just found whatever that was. So, um she said she just found that one today. But nonetheless, um, when you buy into a franchise, you know, what what what do they get out of that? You know, Caleb, you can go ahead and start and then and then I'll kind of dovetail on that. Well, again, we're at ground zero, so I'm sure things will change in time. But we a lot of a lot of the painting franchises is what we've modeled our stuff off of or looked at and tried to learn from because it's a little, you know, there's a paintbrush in our hand, not a nail gun. And so a lot of the a lot of the um painting franchises, their main goal is to grow to be acquired usually later for a buyout. And so their goal is they teach people how to hire subs and then how to sell jobs. And um we can teach you those things and we do teach those things, but we also are pretty heavy-handed in actually knowing how to produce what we do. And so because we have, you know, we're in the business, too. And so a lot of our training is going to be hands-on how to produce jobs, how to get it done. And then there's all the other things that people don't think about. Everybody always asks about how do you stain a fence, what sprayer do to use, but then we go into um all the back office stuff. There's a little bit of HR stuff. There's a lot of marketing stuff. There's a lot of business development stuff and strategic planning and things that we teach. And so when when they buy a franchise for us, they're going to

Come in for a week long and they're going to get all of those things uh dished out to them. And there's a whole long list and I'm forgetting all of it. But but there's basically you got to we got to teach the whole system and then we got to hold their hand as they get up and going. Yeah. So for us we we do a a three-w weekek intensive training course, right? So there's one week of um primarily online um like business fundamentals like marketing uh bookkeeping like all the all the things that happen behind the scenes. Then there's a oneweek intensive on learning how to install fence, right? And then another one intensive on learning how to sell fence, right? And then like that's sort of like the the first part of like drinking from a fire hose. And they go back, they implement, and then we're we're walking with them through the first like six months of getting set up to say like, okay, well, okay, like you've started to sell, you've started to install, like what's going wrong, what's going right, and like slowly getting them aligned with the systems the way that they're intended to be. and and then you know the the goal being like 6 months after starting operations that they are like mostly aligned and and and rocking and rolling and and at least operating at break even. Right. And the reason I'm asking is because there's this perception I guess with some people that if it's a franchise or superior fence and rail or whatever franchise it is is they are not as skilled, not as you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. Great. Like Yeah. Yeah. I hear all the [ __ ] on on all the Facebook for man. I don't want to get you all riled up, Zach. I'm just saying why I am. Yeah. Well, you know, like, all right, you got me all riled up. But like everybody go back to like I go back to my first like couple months in business. I like the first nine months. I I tell people like I I thought I would come in and like gain control of the situation and like get it under control within like 90 days and then like everything would be fine. But it took me at least nine months to get like everything fully under control. Yeah. And like we we like there were some broken eggs like to make that omelette, you know what I mean? Like and and like anybody who wants to like throw shade at like a new business, like go ahead and do that, right? But like if you can't remember what it was like to be a new business and like make a bunch of mistakes and waste money over here or make a mistake or goof up an installation for a customer, like that's fine. Like all right, that's fine. Like you never went through that or or you did and you forgot. like, all right, that's fine. Like, whatever, you know, like good for you. Um, but like like like the the the the what I'm focused on is the long-term result, right? Like so like after the 2-year mark, we're seeing like consistent returns, like consistent profitability and like consistently happy customers. Like I'm I am focused on building a system of happiness where the where the customers happy, the the suppliers are happy, the team is happy, and my and my franchisee is happy because they built a business where they can define the their participation in the business, right? Like that's what I'm focused on building. So yeah, there's going to be some slip ups and goof ups along the way, you know, but like that that's the same with with any type of business that starts up in the first like, you know, 12 to 24 months, you know, like I mean, Brian, do you remember when you started your business? Like did you ever goof up an installation or have the team like like you like let the team like go and like run with something? You're like, "Oh man, like what the hell did you guys do?" Like that's completely that's completely wrong. You know, I screwed it up today. I screwed it up today. Forget about why I started. What what do you mean? Right. Yeah. Like today like that happened, you know. But uh you know when you said um you know consistency, you think franchises and you this be probably for both of you guys. you think franchises may offer uh more consistency because of like you you you're developing systems with more of a

Standardization and maybe certain style of fences that you build at these locations, but do you think that it would kind of make it struggle a little bit more with unique or custom projects? Again, Caleb, I'll let you start. Well, I think I mean I think so. I mean, I think you are building consistency with with your processes and systems and your branding and all that. So I think um especially if you you know inject core values into it and you make sure your people are you know similarly valued I think you do have a higher chance of being um in alignment and as opposed to a licensing agreement or you know hey my friend's going to start another one of my company locations on the other side of town. I think it it's just probably a better thing. And I think also in general, you know, talking about new businesses, I think somebody that does go through any type, you know, your 3-we intensive would certainly be better prepared than just starting from nothing. You know, hey, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to start a fence company. I think there's that argument could be made. They're much more prepared than the average guy. Yeah. And and for sure like it's going to it's going to kind of like winnow down like make a small box of things like hey we're really good at the things that are inside the box right but then as the as the owner matures and as their team matures it's a lot easier to say like yeah we'll take a project outside of the box like no problem like um I know enough after operating a business for two years where I can say like okay yeah like I can figure out that weird and wonderful project that you want me to take on and I know how to price it so I don't like lose my ass on it whereas like early on they might say like oh no it's outside the box like I don't want to do it you know and and like that's a perfectly valid response right yeah do you think um here I mean I guess you I talked to a lot I actually had a lot of people talking to me since you guys were coming on about franchises a big subject in our industry the franchises right so uh it was funny how people reaching out hey you got Zach on there you know what I mean stuff like that know you don't have you don't have all the franchises going yet, Caleb, but you'll get it. I'm sure at some point you'll have a bunch going and you'll uh you know, upset some people in some areas, you know, once you get a bunch more of the franchises out there, but um I you think it kind of improves the baseline? I mean, one some people say, "Hey, we think the franchises kind of improves the baseline of quality and service in the industry, right? Which so increases the barrier on that." Um but it may cap, you know, some of the innovation and adaptability. So that's kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier. What um you know, I we don't see any franchises here in Las Vegas yet. And I think I met with somebody that was saying, "Well, you don't have them there because they're licensing and stuff." So re is [singing and music] really it's really hard in Las Vegas. But what uh you think that's that's kind of real? Well, I think that um well, like first of all, for Las Vegas, for me personally, like the the the the demand for sort of like everyday consumer like backyard BTOC fences is pretty low, right? And so like you've built a great business there, Brian, but like somebody coming in fresh who's, you know, new to the industry, like that's going to be a tough go of it, right? Like uh there's more masonry walls in the in the like generally speaking in the desert southwest like Las Vegas, Phoenix, El Paso markets than there than there are anywhere else. And so, so for you it's a little bit unique, but um but but but yeah, like I I feel like um I don't know. I lost my train of thought. Like what did I mean? You think it improves you think the franchises I mean of course you're in the franchise size. So you're probably you probably think that and some people said it it improves like the baseline of quality and service, you know, in the industry. It brings up the barrier a little bit. I I think that it does like I and and the thing is is like we're not coming into any market as the low price leader. It may seem like that at times, right? But like over time like we're not the low price leader. We're not trying to be like budget fence direct or anything like that. like, you know, like we're we're trying to come in and and and like compete with guys who are operating in the out of the back of

Their truck and and competing with like guys who are operating off of really thin margins like so so for me like I've never been the low price leader. Um, and so I don't I don't think that like like that's the real like the thing that would have me concerned is like if a low price leader all of a sudden became very pervasive. Um, like I think that would be a real problem. But I I don't think that's what we're doing. You know, like here and there in some markets some guys might feel like they're being undercut, but the reality is is like we're not trying to undercut anything. were trying to come in at market rates because if I came in with Florida pricing in like Ohio for example, like it it really would be like like a disaster. Like everybody be like, "Oh no, it's a race to zero." Like, "Yeah, I know, dude." Because that's like Florida pricing. But labor rates are different. Um the cost of acquisition is a little bit different in some markets for material. So, you know, we're we're at the end of the day, like we're not trying to be we're not trying to drive the market down. If anything, we're trying to like bring everybody up to our standard. Like, hey, like look at what you can charge to to to get a fence installed. Like it's it's it's it's not so bad, you know? Yeah. And and like you said, we're not I guess I don't worry about it. We we do mainly commercial and industrial. There's really not much of a residential market like you said here in Las Vegas anyways. So, um I mean, I'm not saying you couldn't open up a residential company here, but it's just you it's just not what you think. I've measured I've measured the volume in in Las Vegas and like relatively speaking it's a it's like a fraction of the the the demand that we see in in other markets, you know. So, it's like okay, well, let's hold off on going to to those places. Let's let's expand in the places where we know there's healthy demand. Yeah. You know, they used to be like 10% of our at like one point they were like 10% of our business and they were 80% of our headaches and nightmares. It was I don't know. I don't know what it is. If you could give me a mile of fence 12 foot tall with barb wire and razor on it, we'll knock it out. Give me 50 feet of like some wood fence or vinyl fence in some lady's backyard. We'll be out there for four months. I'll have a complaint to the contractor's board. I'll probably get sued. We'll never finish it. I'll never get paid. Well, and that kind of speaks to like the overregulation aspect. in and markets that are like really heav he heavily regulated with licensing um and and like really strict control over like the the the types of products that are installed and what's approved by the municipalities. Like those are the really thriving black market, you know, places. Um and it's not a it's not a place where fence contractors can come in and thrive and succeed. Yeah. Not for a while. I mean, you could get in. It's a good it's a good city, though. I mean, there's always work and it's it's seven. It's, you know, we're coming, Brian. We're we're coming for you, you know, and I'm going to market the [ __ ] out of Las Vegas. I got I got I know that's right. Well, back to that. So, I'm glad you brought it up. So, uh Caleb, marketing wise, are you looking to are you looking to kind of start off in Tennessee area and and move on beyond that? Or what's your plan for getting out there, you know, around the country? Well, we we want to go nationwide and and there are there are some certain registration states we haven't registered in, but a vast majority of the lower 48, we're registered in those states and ready to do business there. So, um we do want to make a nationwide push. Yeah. So, you've got any any setup at all? You said you're just about ready to be able to I've got we've got about a half a dozen that are are waiting for the first class and and wanting to go. So, but you know, talking about pricing and things like that, we've always been the price leader in our market. We sort of built the stain market in Nashville and we get a bunch of guys started that I don't want to sound derogatory but chased our coattails for for lack of a better term. And and we were a company that had overhead, we had employees, we held them over the winter. We um we had overhead that other guys didn't. And so when when

Things when the economy was really good, these guys just kept raising their prices up to be right underneath where we are. And every once in a while, you'll get one that says, "Man, you undercut me." And then I look at the quote we did and like we bid it at a 70% margin. what did you bid it at? And so you're going to you're going to get some people that complain about you no matter what. There's, you know, but I think I think just like superior. Um I've been around the fence business long enough to know superior generally. I mean I guess there's I don't want to say a bad apple in in reference to superior, but any business you're going to get somebody that for some reason you're going to bid something out of the ordinary cheap or whatever. But I think in general like the idea of the franchise is to be profitable because people are buying into a profitable system. They're not going to buy a franchise if the numbers aren't right. So, um, so I think in overall most franchises, unless they're unless they've got some motive that we don't know about, they're going to they're going to be competitive, but they're going to be profitable. Yeah. You know, when I started, there really wasn't consulting. I mean, you had some business consultants that were just general business consultants out there, but now you've got a lot more um people talking about how to bid stuff and pricing and and people like that. I mean, back when I started, they'd say, "Hey, you know, you and by the I'm going to say this, guys. By no means I'm telling anybody what to bid anything at. I don't want to hear it. But uh I'm just saying we would start with you take the material and uh you know take the material and you double it. You take your labor and you double it. I mean it was just Yeah. Or you'd have that third third and third rule, right? And this is literally how we bid everything back then. Some you'd make a killing on, some you wouldn't make money on, but there was no, you know, there wasn't really trying to make your 15% or whatever they're doing at now. And it seemed like we were all making money and it was working, right? And then you and then I think that um as we get more and more even like the general contractors and everybody that's starting to self-perform you know and things like that they have a different mentality where it's like hey we're okay making our 15%. And I think that's tougher especially if we got consultants that you know haven't really owned or operated fence companies and they're and they're used to dealing with contractors you know actual GCs that are subbing all the work out right so they're not really putting the money out for the labor and the material. They didn't have to sign on for you know maybe there's a lean on the property not the general right for the materials. uh you know you know a pre-lean or something but so they can mark it up 15%. They're just making money on whatever the contracts are, right? So once you get into a trade like this um you know you you don't run you don't have to run in those thin margins because you're you're taking a lot more of the risk and the liabilities. So um I think it's uh it's interesting to watch how it's all kind of you know how it's all kind of changing. But um I appreciate you guys you know sharing your knowledge on that. But I do want to I want to broach this one thing you're saying about pricing and I know there was like one or two people Zack I'm I'm going to fire at you for a second because I can't let you off here without without zinging you once. But they're like and I and I had a conversation with someone they're like yeah but you don't understand those um superior fence and rails they'll ask the people for the contract and come in 15 20% under them or you're going to hear stuff like that right? So and then um and by the way you know they'll start attacking how much you're marketing you know and what you're doing on marketing and things like that. And you know my question to them is well If they're coming in 15 20% under you and they're spending millions of dollars a year in marketing. First off, I want to know where Zach's buying his material for one because how much better a deal are you getting on materials than us, right? But uh you know, I mean, what do you say to that? You know what I mean? I know you kind of stay out of it, man. You dropped off social media the most, I I I did. I I dropped off all the groups. I like I I found at some like at a certain point like the intelligence officer in me because I was an

Intelligence officer in the army like I was I was just paying attention to what was going on in social media just for my situational awareness and to like pick up some nuggets here and there. But um I like I'll say this like like yeah like here and there in certain markets we're doing meter beat quotes because we're trying to gain an understanding of like what's going on in the market, right? And so if you're starting up a new fence business and you don't know if your mar your margins are are correct or if if your pricing is correct and you're like wondering like where you need to be with your price point so that you can win jobs at like a profitable margin, right? So, like one strategy to do that is to do like meter beat quotes like hey like like hey listen if if if if so and so fence company offers you a competitive quote like send me their quote and I'll and if they match our quality will match our price like that type of thing, right? But um like like once we figure all of that out and we figure out like what the price point needs to be in order to be competitive in any in any given market like then it's like okay well now we're going to go with our strategy. We're going to buy appropriately and we're not going to try to like undercut the entire market in order to like I don't want to start the race to zero. You know what I mean? Like I don't want to I don't want to be the guy that did that. Right. Right. Um, so and then like when it comes to marketing like you know there's been a lot of chatter like here recently like one of the forums blew up about like you know like a a certain campaign that we had running like I've had issues with other companies like Yeah. No, sure. Like I've had issues with companies like running marketing campaigns like that this like uh like against us and then like I've had guys call me and be like, "Hey man, what what the hell? Like why are you guys doing this?" And anytime like somebody's called me and said like, "Hey, what what the heck? Like why are you guys doing this?" I I look into it and if we're doing something that's not like purely white hat that is like above the board, I put a stop to it and I figure out like why we got there and then I and then I and then I put a stop to it, you know, like that's all we can do. like I I like like to like we I I think I pulled out the the the uh this metric out of my hat like when I was responding like we've had like three million impressions per month of our ads out there and I've only ever had to deal directly with like one or two instances of like hey why are you guys doing something that seems like it's black hat and I'm like all right well like hey let me fix that like we fixed it and then like we moved on down the road you know what I mean so Like sure, like drag me out into the public forum, that's fine, too. Like if you feel like you have to do that, that's fine. You know what I mean? But like I'm I'm also like I think fairly approachable for most guys in the industry. Um that if you have a problem with something we're doing, like we'll like I'll take a look at it and if it's valid, then we'll we'll we'll we'll fix it, you know, and we and we've done that a couple of times lately. Uh, but I I I don't feel like we're doing any like I know for sure that we are trying to do everything like above board like you know but if you're like if you're like uh uh Las Vegas not not to pick on you Brian but like Las Vegas Fence or like Nashville Fence Company or like Memphis Fence or like like if you're like just a generic like name associated with a municipality like we're probably going to like irrit irritate you a little bit and I'm sorry for that, but I'm I'm also kind of like not sorry. Yeah, you know, it kind of sucks. I mean, it's good. I mean, obviously we're Las Vegas fence. We're one of the oldest, you know, names in fencing in Las Vegas, obviously, but we get no mercy, man. It's just like So there I mean, but back when we started doing it, it was yellow pages, you know, when I first started doing fencing, there was none of this online stuff. So, I miss those days. You spend $800 a month or thousand whatever dollars a month and you just had an ad in the yellow pages, right? And they flip through and and they'd call you. Now, I feel like all these SEO company, all these marketing companies and all these ones that are doing this, it's like here's what it feels like. It feels like they went and they built a sign in front of my sign out front, right? And then

All the people driving by see their sign and they charge me for my own lead I would have got if they wouldn't have built that sign in front of my business, right? That's what all this uh online marketing is. What used to be $800 a month, you know, is now $8,000 a month, right? To try to get the same leads we would get if none of those guys existed because people are just buying putting up they're building a billboard in front of my Right. Look, it's going to get worse before it gets better, right? Because like as we come out of this like massive like COVID rush of demand and all that stuff, like the same set of contractors is there competing for less business and it's going to get worse before it gets better. So like you know the cost of acquisition for customers has definitely gone up over the last two years. We've seen that and it's it's it's like a it's it's like it's an adapt and overcome situation, right? You either adapt and overcome or you or you go out, you know. So, pick one. Pick one, you know. It's not what it not it's not as bad as like electrical or plumbing or something like that. No, I mean those guys I mean they roofing Yeah. They'll spend like 60 80 bucks a click a lead or something it's costing them by the time they're done. So that and their service calls out there a lot are probably half the cost of us doing a gate operator service call or something. So they're literally not making any money on that first hour. They're just hoping that there's a sec, you know, more repairs hours or parts or something like that. And they're just about it's about acquisition of a customer I guess right so that's right that's got to be you know even worse and as Las Vegas fence I don't even look anymore if you looked right now there's probably Las Vegas fencing company there's probably Las Vegas fence installation company there's like a million of them that like Google accounts right that uh are all Las Vegas fence plus something right so it's uh it it I used to drive me nuts dude I'd call the number and it was always some company you couldn't get a call back on and I'm like I don't even know why they do it nobody answers the phone or calls So, I don't know how they're getting the leads other than it's just a numbers game. Right. Yeah. But, um, Caleb, do you do any uh AdWords at all or anything like that? Any kind of marketing? Yeah, I mean, we do we do it as a franchise or we we would take care of that. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I think I mean, if I had a nickel for every time somebody put, you know, stain and seal experts in front of their company name or whatever, I mean, it's just it it runs rampant and and uh that's just part of it. And then when you hire a marketing company, which most guys are hiring this stuff out, the marketing company's going to do the same thing. And so it it happens. But I I don't think we should point fingers at anybody, but uh just try to be just try to be better. No, you can drag me on the public square, you know, like throw throw stones, you know. Yeah. Well, I I think I think it it it's just as easy that to go in there and look and you'll see superior fence builders, you know, superior fence building, you know, right? And so you're going to get it. It's just it's a it's a name game and a numbers game. So, um, it is what it is. Yeah. But thanks for addressing that, Zach, too. I know, um, that was kind of a subject. Uh, man, that was a couple weeks ago we talked about that, right? Yeah, it was. That kind of that kind of popped up and I see all that and I I always get a bunch of, uh, even as FWA, we get a bunch of calls. Hey, Brian, what can you do? I go, what do you want? What do you mean, what can I do about that? I go, what do you There's no button I can push to make it affects how people market. And I don't I think if you do a good enough job out there and uh you know if I I think I'm I'm a big organic lead person. So I'm not uh I never really worry too much about what is doing. My my my number one with with all of our folks is like hey like first do good work, you know what I mean? And so if you first do good work, if you establish like good rapport with customers, if you if you're able to like generate good like online reputation for your business, like everything from there is like so easy, you know what I mean? Like like the the the marketing efforts, like

All of that stuff just gets so much easier if you're first like doing good work. And so like yeah, I mean in some ways it it sort of minimizes like how much we have to worry about what the competition is doing if we're just kicking ass and and and doing a good job for people. Yeah. So Caleb, um if what advice would you give somebody that's looking and I'm going to ask both of you guys this, what advice would you give someone that was, you know, before they actually started talking to you or something they should think about or do before they thought about um starting a franchise with one of you guys? Well, I guess they probably need to sit down and figure out what their goals are. you know, what do what are you trying to achieve with this? You know, a lot of guys start a business because they want to grow an empire. They want to change lives in their community or whatever. And other guys do it because they can't pass a drug test. And there's everything in between. And so, I guess, I mean, you just really got to know what you're looking for. And if a franchise is a good fit, go go find one. And you may you may end up buying a popsicle stand uh franchise. You know, you may find out that fence or staining isn't for you. So, I think just figuring out what you want in life uh would be the the main thing, you know. I I think it my experience I've always worked with um different type of entrepreneurs than what we're what we're seeing come through with the franchise space. The franchise guys seem to be a lot more serious about going they they want to go from zero to 100 very quickly instead of taking things slow. They want to they want to go right in. They don't want to lift it. They say that's the thing I've heard over and over. I don't want to lift it. I want to start off and I want to do this right. And so I think um it may be a totally even different type of person than uh the average fence builder. Would you agree with that, Zach? Is that what you're seeing? Yeah, I mean for for me for guys coming from the industry, if you really want to like embrace this concept, you um like some of the some of the like honestly some of the worst results that we've had have been from people within the industry, right? Like coming into our model. So unless they like were born out of like my business in Jacksonville, Florida, um they have a really hard time even though like even though like Brian to your point like hey we got to a million dollars and like couldn't seem to get past that point. Like even though like that's the case, um even though like they've they've like bumped up against these thresholds, they're like super proud of the name that they built and like whatever systems they built to like get to that point, right? So if you're if you're cool with like kind of throwing everything you know outside of like building fences like out the door. Yeah. And then like from like a business standpoint like like like kind of like ripping your model apart and then like re-implementing with like what we have to offer then I'd say like yeah like what we have is for you. Um, but if there's a if there's too much pride of ownership, if there like for for like retreads within within the industry, like uh if if there's too much pride of ownership, if you can't let go of uh the way that you've been doing things even though it hasn't worked, like it's it's just sort of like this pride of ownership like obstacle. If you can't overcome that, then like that's fine. like keep doing what you're doing and like I think eventually like some of those guys will like overcome and and and like persevere but like what we have to offer is just like a whole different way of thinking about it, you know. Yeah, I agree with that. I think that really shines light on what I'm beginning to see um in in our journey on this is u I would second that. what if you could go back um and this is more for Zach because I know you're you got your six what you're getting set up but now looking back Zach at what you've done is there anything you would have done differently when you first started this thing um you know back in 1617 when you started the franchising part of it is there something you could look back and say man I wish I'd have known this when I started that the the only thing that uh no I mean really honestly like nothing about it you know what I mean like we came into it we shoed uh like my partner and I like really

Like just funded the the franchise business out of like our own like really successful fence businesses, right? Uh we didn't we didn't invest a whole lot above and beyond like what those businesses could bear. Uh we did we didn't go too fast. It seems like we've expanded um a lot lately, right? Like we've gone from 50 to 100 locations like really quickly, but like we started off like super slow. Um, you know, even even when when we got to the point where we were like, "Hey, let's sell this to somebody else and and and let them deal with it." Like I've stayed around for for, you know, the last three and a half years after the acquisition and sort of like babysat the whole thing like all the way through. Like there's not really much that I could go back and say like, man, I wish we had done like this differently other than like during like the rapid expansion years if we had just been like a little bit pickier about like who we let in. But even then, like as I say that, like some of the people that I'm like, ah, maybe I should have been picky about letting them in have been like super successful, have built fantastic businesses and like in like all these different markets. I'm like, "All right, well, you know, like I guess things just kind of worked out the way that they did." I don't I don't know that, you know, from my perspective that that I would say like, "Oh, man. I I have like this is like my main regret, you know, like um it's it's never been easy. It's always been fun." And like I I feel like at the end of the day like we have some like some really great businesses like all over the country that are doing great things and we're poised to become like like I said at the beginning of the episode like we hit a billion dollars in sales. Like I want to be a a a business that's doing a billion dollars a year in business. And I think like we're on our way to doing that. And so, like, it's it's hard for me to look back and say like, man, I I wish we hadn't done this, you know, or I wish we had done this differently. Like, I I don't I honestly don't think at this point in time that I could say that I have any regrets right now. Wow, that's great. I think that a lot of people don't realize that, too. I went to that Empower event that you had um here in Las Vegas when you were out here and explain to everybody about that. I don't think a lot of people even realize that um it's not the same as it was um you know, the setup is what 201617. You actually did get acquired, right? Yeah, we did. We So, um it's a funny story and I I'll try to be as quick as I can telling it, but um in 2021, we had a lot of interest in people who wanted to buy our business, right? And we got a lot of uh what I what I'll say is like lowball offers, right? Like people who were just like, "Ah, man, we'll offer you this." And we're like, "Gosh, that seems like like why the hell would I do that?" Like, you know what I mean? Like I could just operate the business for another couple years and like earn that. So, why would I do that? Um, and so at a certain point in 2021, I I told my partner, I was like, "Hey man, I'm going to go and like tell everybody who's interested like we're not going to sell and we're just going to ride this thing out." And uh the last person that I called was an investment bank uh that had been talking to us and they're like, "Well, hey, listen, like the conditions are ripe for you guys. Like if we can guarantee you a certain value, like would you consider like continuing on in the process?" And we said, "Yeah, okay. if you can guarantee us like this amount of value, like we'll continue on in the process. And and and one of the things that I thought about as we went through that is like, well, hey, listen, if if I bring like a partner into this mix, if I if I sell this business, I want to bring on somebody who can help me like grow more efficiently, who can like help us avoid pitfalls, who can like do a lot of things. And so, um, we ended up getting a lot more value out of the business than we than we even thought was possible. And, uh, we sold to a company that that eventually became what is now Empower Brands. So, now we're part of a platform. And for those people that are out there like kind of wondering what Empower Brands is, like the easiest example to point to is like, well, hey, look, there's this company called Neighborly that has 30 brands underneath it. Um, that's what Empower Brands aspires to be. Like we we currently have 10 franchise brands underneath our

Umbrella and we're going to probably grow to 20 or 30 like brands over the next 5 to 10 years. And so like we we we joined up forces with Empower Brands. And for me as the franchiseor, it took a lot of weight off of my shoulders as like, okay, I've got to figure out legal. I got to figure out accounting. I've got to figure out franchise development. I got to figure out all these things. And all the and oh, by the way, I've got to help all of these new franchises succeed in their business. So, by joining forces with Empower Brands, I was able to just focus on the one part that I really needed to focus on, which was helping franchises succeed in their business. and Empower took care of the legal, the finance, you know, like the the the marketing, like all of those things. And it's really been a good symbiotic relationship with with them. Um, and so like again, like I, you know, some people could look at that and be like, "Oh, man, you wish you hadn't sold." And sometimes I could look at it and be like, "Oh yeah, I wish we hadn't." But like on the other hand, like my life has gotten substantially easier, you know, like cuz as the founder of a business, like everything like rolls up to you. Like Caleb, you know that, Brian, you know that, like anybody who started a business knows that, like the buck stops with you. And so, and for me with my military background, like it was easier, I think, for me to adapt to like, okay, yeah, now I've got like a higher headquarters that I got to report to. That's great. But they're doing a bunch of stuff that then like allows me to really focus on the important like day-to-day almost like what for our franchises like they don't have to learn how to sell fence. They don't have to learn how to market. They don't have to learn the bookkeeping. They don't have to learn all this stuff. Like we can help them do all of that. Um so they can just focus on the meat of the business which is selling and installing fence. Right. So yeah. Yeah. that and that's why I wanted everybody to hear that too because I don't think a lot of people realize that um they don't just have to tag you in the post. They could tag somebody else as well now. So that's right. That's right. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tag you anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it does it does like I've been [snorts] able to I will say this like I've been able to like operate really independently and like it's been it's been really the best of both worlds for the last three and a half years. like I have been able to do what I what I feel like is the right thing to do. I haven't had to be like all PC and corporate and all that stuff. And any of my franchises will tell you that if they met with me lately like I give them like I give them like like hey this is what you need to do in in order to improve your business. Like this is what you've got to do and there's no sort of like filter on that. Uh but I have been able to let a lot of things like be done by other people so I can just focus on the success of my franchises and that part of it has been awesome. Yeah. And and Caleb, so the reason I brought you on is because you you and Ashley, the way you guys run your business and the way you guys present yourself and out there on not just social media, but in person and in all the events and we've had quite a bit of contact over the years, you know, since I've started doing all this. Um I have just an amazing amount of respect for you guys. So, um, I was excited to hear you you would be doing something and and you know, and I I'm excited to see what happens to your franchises. So, if there's something we can do to help or something, let me know. And, uh, I mean, I'm I'm interested to see how quickly and how well you grow without doing all those tactics that, you know, Zach does with his marketing. So, that's I'm just wondering how we Yeah. I'm just wondering how we can be stained experts is the preferred stain vendor for Superior Filer. Yeah, that's that's the easy one. That's the deal there. That's an easy one. Yeah. So, um you got six coming and how many again before because I don't think I asked you before. How many exact um franchises do you have, Zach? Uh right now we have 110 locations on the map. 110 with a billion uh finally hit the billion.

And that's and that and that's all from like coast to coast, right? So, like Seattle to San Diego to Miami to uh I think our northern northeastern most uh unit right now is Boston, Massachusetts, right? We haven't gone to Maine yet. Where are yours going to be approximately? Me? Yeah. Where do you think your first uh half a dozen will be? Will it be around locally around you or kind of spread across? T Tennessee, Georgia. We got several guys in Virginia. We we got somebody on the fence in Kentucky and then uh another guy on the fence probably up in Omaha, Nebraska. Okay. So, you'll grow quick. Yeah, it's going to happen fast once it once it gets out there. Um yeah, so um before everybody went um I like I said, I do want to say thanks. And again, how how can they reach out to you guys? What's a what's a good way to reach out if somebody was interested in starting a franchise? Go for it, Zach. Hey, you can you can reach me uh you can you can find me on social media. It's not hard. Uh you can you can call me uh text me 904502413. You can uh email me zack.pattons superiorfincandrail.com. I haven't changed my like Twitter tag to like fencebots or anything like that. I'm not the king. I'm not not any of that [ __ ] but like But but yeah, like it I'm pretty easy to reach. You can find me out there in the in the uh in the universe. So like feel free to reach out. There you go. Yep. Same for me. Cale Caleb at stainsillexperts.com and uh we've got um ssfranchise.com and then you can go to stainsilexperts.com find us and I'll throw my cell phone number too, but don't don't spam me. 615 Yeah. 6 615-5334481. That's my cell. love to talk to you guys. That's awesome. So, um I'm going to I'm going to throw out a few things we got coming on for uh next week episode and then I'm going to let you guys go in a minute, too. I appreciate it because I know it's going on an hour and I promised Zach I think 30 minutes and I normally, you know, having you guys on was great because I normally cap these at 30 40 minutes, but I could have talked to you guys all night. So, I told you, man. Like, you're like it's a short episode. I'm like, I don't know. We'll see. So, next week uh we're going to be uh doing one called Don't Panic. It's just a checklist. If you've been following me at all, uh the TGM 500 standards for gate operators, we've got uh apps coming out. It's already out actually Android and iOS. And we've got, um a whole new userfriendly, easy way to uh get your gates, uh checklist safe, lower some liability, get get it documented that you put all the safety devices on your gates. I know we're all tired of talking about gate safety. So that's why I created all this because we want to make sure it's just done and taken care of and we can move on to the fun stuff, right? But next uh coming up here in July uh we've got Spanish training over um at Event. It's going to be in Spanish and English. So uh I'm going to do in the I got the English one up here because I don't have anybody on here speaking Spanish right now. But July 24th the training it's going to be um three days. Uh it's going to be fun. We're going to have a full day of vinyl fence training. Um second day is going to be a lot of business business training and then a gate operator. We're actually installing a gate operator from PPA and some other manufacturers coming out. So, go to fenceuniversity.com if you guys want to get more information on that or register for that class. Um, during the fence show, um, we're going to be actually doing uh some if it pops up here. We're going to be doing some training. You can scan that QR code, everybody. Um, it'll get you a free pass to the fence show as well to come to this training. Um, you're going to see a lot of a lot of people in here for this one. We're going to be doing in-person training on the TGM500 standards to get this. Again, we've got the the gate safety manuals, everything we're going to be handing out. We just want to get this out there, get it over with so we can all get back to building fence and uh get everybody building the gates safer. So you guys, thank you for coming on. Unless Susan had anything else. What did she have? I think she wanted me to pull that thing

Up there, you guys. Oh, she tried to pull it up. Okay, 2025 show is coming up, though. That's right. Here I am talking about what's going on at the show. So go to fencehow.com, get registered. Um you the it's easy. It's a one quick form. Get registered to the show. It's going to be a fun one. It's already filling up um quickly. We're expecting um probably similar similar number of exhibitors last year and uh attendance is uh above where we thought it was going to be already. So, we're excited about that. Um you guys, thank you. I appreciate it. Fun times. Yeah, it was a great time. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Brian. This is This is It was all right, man. Thank you guys. All right, everybody listening, uh if you're watching this on YouTube, um I don't know how to do it, but like uh subscribe or something like that. Help us out because that's what uh keeps all this stuff going. All right, we'll see you guys. Have a good night. Thank you. Thanks, guys.