How to Break Into Commercial Fencing with Sasha, Chance, & Tyler

Hey,

Hey.

[snorts] Everyone, as you can see, I don't have a the big broad cowboy hat on, and I definitely better looking than Brian Frederickson. I just want to welcome everyone to the My Fence Life podcast. Um Ryan is enjoying a little bit of a break and somehow I got conned into hosting the show for him while he's gone. So everyone out there, look forward to tonight's show. I want to introduce our two guests. We got Chance Roy. Chance, how you doing? How's it going, man? And then we have Tyler Cruz. How you doing, sir? Good. How you doing Sash? So firstly guys, introduce me to you to who you are, what your business is, what do you do. We'll start with you, Chance. What tell me a bit about yourself and your business. Yeah. So my name is Chance, obviously. I'm a owner of Cinjun Fencing. We've been doing fence for six years now. Um I don't have a crazy story. Kind of started small, worked our way up. Uh we have uh eight employees now, one full-time salesman. Um yeah, man. We just blessed to be on, you know, my fence life and maybe we can spit out some knowledge and learn learn as we go. That's going to be a bit hard with a couple of fencing guys, but we'll give it a go. Right. That's right. Yeah. My name is Tyler Cruz. Where are you? Okay. gonna break up. Where's Cinjun fence? I'm assuming it's somewhere in where you where you located. So, we're located in Lafayette, Louisiana in the south almost as as low as you can go. And what's your territory? Love it. I love it. And do you what do you cover? What's your territory you cover? Um, I mean, we've went we've went far out before, you know, 100 miles, but we like to really keep it within 50 50 mile radius, maybe 70, but we keep it pretty local. Yeah, it ain't too often we go suitcasing or anything like that. Makes sense. Tyler, tell me about yourself. Bad boy. Name is Tyler Cruz. I'm the general manager at B and Brown Fence Company in Phoenix, Arizona. Originally started in California in a different couple different outfits, commercial fence union, stuff like that, too. But moved out here about three or four years ago, stepped into this position about a year ago uh for general manager. And uh yeah, we dabble in uh pretty much specialty custom, you know, a lot of school projects and stuff like that, too. Um we we love the the data centers. We love we love multi-tier projects, stuff like that, too. doing anything special somewhere where the other fence guys are kind of scared. I kind of like dabbling in that dab in that. Nice. And where's your terri like what where do you where does Bill and Brown sort of focus their territory in? All All corners of Arizona. All corners. Go anywhere. Yep. Yep. Well, tonight guys, why why we sort of, you know, set this podcast up was we really want to talk about and hear your two expertise on, you know, what do we do and how do we how does a residential necessarily like a residential installer maybe get into commercial? What are the pitfalls? What are some things to look at? Um, I know Tyler, you you know, your specialty is commercial. uh chance with you do a little bit of both. So seeing getting that perspective from you two will be really interesting tonight. And as everybody knows, uh we're all going to be at the fence show in Las Vegas. So I'm going to throw some dates out real quick and I'm sure it's going to pop up and um Susan's going to beat me with a stick if I get the dates wrong. So let me see if I can get the dates right. So October 1st to 3 is the actual fence floor show and the education part starts September 29th. And this show is sort of pivoting off a new education program that FWA is going to start which is an education program for anybody thinking or wanting to get out of or not out but start to work into the uh commercial industry. there'll be an education program helping people uh with bidding bid processes and all sorts of stuff to to just broaden your horizon if you're interested in you know taking your residential install company and and having a play in commercial. So my first question I want to ask you two to answer you know whoever wants to answer it

First. Um what's the difference personally between the residential install side and the commercial if any? I'll let Tyler take it. Well and my perspective um because I've dabbled in a little bit of both in my previous life in Southern California. Um with residential it's very personal right. It's someone's personal personal house, stuff like that, too. When it comes to commercial, it's a little less heart in it, I guess you could say. It's more it's more business, right? And it seems like it's more productive. Like a lot of the a lot of the residential stuff, in my opinion, is a lot of favors, a lot of a lot of, you know, wheeling and dealing, you know, personally with someone's house rather than commercial. You know, it's more competitive, right? You usually have you usually have, you know, your peers that you're normally bidding against or you have a relationship that's really good and you're just kind of, you know, bidding directly to them and give them the best pricing so you don't have to, you know, be competitive, right? Where in the residential market, you know, it's more of a feeling, you know, you have to be very personable and stuff like that, too. Even even if you're a really good company and a really good, you know, reputation, the person of the house doesn't like the way you look. You know, probably not going to get the job. You know what I mean? And that's that's kind of the uh the added f, you know, just kind of the the thought process behind the residential in my end kind of layman. Chance, what do you think to that? What do you think? Yeah, to add on to Tyler, I would say the three things that pop into my head is the size of the jobs. Y um the payment structure and I would say the relationship, you know, that that's the three factors to me that differ the most. So, how would you anything in my life, you know, they don't like they don't like a certain thing is like you're only getting paid a portion of the work, right? So, in my experience, you know, [singing] all right, here we go, guys. Question one, how do So just so everybody knows, these questions come off from um the the post fence only industry. So the first question tonight is how does your company handle job cancellations at the last minute? Is a deposit refunded? I believe in our state they have three days to cancel a deposit and after that it's locked in, but do you refund anyway? you offer a partial refund or you or just keep it and tell them there is nothing you can do. Just curious on how everyone handles this situation. And this is coming from Granger Mattingly. What do you guys one of you guys answer that one? So hopefully none of my clients or customers are are watching this, but if we do I think this only happened six years. happened one time, but if somebody wants to cancel, we just give the money back. I think it's it's a good faith. It's Yeah, it might say it on your contract, this fee or this or or you know, restock fee or anything. If it's not a special order, we giving the money back. And if if it's is a special order, we I guess we give the material with it, too. You know, I don't know. anything to make it, you know, to to just move on. I I guess it depends on how this is framed, right? Like on a commercial project versus residential, like residential, I'm 100% on chances level, right? Because your reputation follows you everywhere, right? You you they might fall into a situation where something happens and they just can't afford the anymore, right? So, you want to make sure, like you said, you know, in special special order stuff, restocking stuff, you can work with them on stuff like that, too. But if it's just a standard off-the-wall thing, it's different. But if it's a commercial project, for example, like if you're about to start a project and they cancel on you because they found someone cheaper, uh, usually you can say, "Hey, look, man, you know, you know, we we have some time invested in this. Let's just make it fair and just be upfront and honest with them. You're not trying to get the full contract amount or anything like that, but hey, look, you cancel last minute, you're still doing the work. I mean I mean, if the

Job got cancelceled completely, that's different. But if they're shopping around, you know, then you you have some some grounds to stand on. If usually you you you did the right thing, you know, you say, "Hey, look, you know, appreciate it." On the next one, they're going to remember that and hopefully call you back and your reputation will follow you, you know, and how you how you approach these tough situations. Yeah, I like that. Okay, so we've got another question here. Thanks, guys. That was really good answer. Um, what's a better way to get more leads besides Google? This comes from Jonathan Jenkins. What do you guys think? So, what I would say is my advice is I think the obvious is always use what's free. So, you should be on every social media page and posting daily, doing live videos. Um, making videos of of your of your employees, yard signs, that's a good idea. We have yard signs. What we do is um we'll sit every every job that gets sold, we'll go out and put a yard side out. Some sometimes the yard size is out for a month, sometimes even longer if it's a special order thing. So, that's a good idea as well. But, um I think social media, it's free. Use it. Um, and then, uh, you know, hire yourself a a a good website designer. You know, have a good website, make it, um, look professional. You know, that's the first place where most go is is your website. Yeah, that's a good point. What do you think, Tom? What's What do you think? Uh, I think I think it's a good combination, right? So like like you said on the commercial side, you know, if you have no footprint, if you're not spending any money on advertising or anything like that, too, your workmanship usually speaks for itself. If you put your own signs on your own work, people drive by and see it's free advertising on the work you've already done. On the residential side, you know, like you said, um social media is is the key, right? Social media is the key for residential because it's where a lot of people I mean, Facebook Marketplace, stuff like that, too, Craigslist, stuff like that. just to kind of get get a call, right? They might not be the customer. They might be people that, you know, are a little bit, you know, depending on your price range, stuff like that, to especially if you're starting off, you're selling everything, right? But if you're more established, a little bit more overhead, you might not be in the range that some of these people are looking for, but at least you're getting the calls, right? And you can you can you get a shot because Google, you know, you could even you could spend thousands and thousands of dollars on Googles and get one lead that's that's worth a damn 50, right? So, like you said, you know, and the other thing too is uh you know, a lot of the old school ways is getting out there and being with the people, Yeah. Like the home shows like for residential, you know, they like to do those home shows. Like if you're out there, you'll see a lot of the solar people. You'll see that the the typical offenders at these shows, but if you're a fence company, rather than having a booth and you're just walking around and just kind of meeting people, you know, that's that's people set up a booth and they sit there wait for people to come to them. If you're if you're actively trying to sell work, you get out there, you bring your cards and you go see the people that are walking around like, "Hey, you know, you got to fence your house, stuff like that, too." Just actually start talking to people and actually being personable because that's what sells a job in residential is your personality and who you are as a person is what's selling the job. I like that. And and before I go to the next question, this is a plug for JC Jury. If you need signs, yard signs, go see JC Jury. They'll take care of you, man. They they take care of our fencing industry a lot. a lot of time for those guys and I agree B like look you know coming from the install side myself simple things like you said Chance and Tyler like whatever you can do free try that there has to be some marketing has to be I feel like you're right Todd too we've lost that oneonone looking in the eyes you know I think that's a big part of you know if you can sort of get yourself in front of people um you know you will be successful um in the long run I Okay, here we go to the next question

From Kuchi Construction. So, these are a custom fence builder. To those of you who drive postmasters post, do you use 8 foot or 9 foot for wood privacy fence? What do you think, Chad? It's just more Yeah, this would be more of a residential uh install. So, we used to use um we used to use Postmasters Plus and we would get 10 foot, but I do know that you can get away with 9 foot. You just have to, you know, be 42 plus inches into the ground. So, just make sure you're going deep enough with with the pokes. Yeah, you always want more meat on the on the bones. You can cut it off if you mar the top and stuff like that, too. But you never want to do and soil conditions are the same thing, right? So, a longer post, you hit a rock or something like that, you can cut as long as it's secure, but always go longer in my opinion. Chance, we're losing We're losing you, bud. Like, I'm cutting out. I'm still cutting out. You there? Yeah, I'm here. There we go. No, you're good. You're not cut. Yeah, you'll have to start from the beginning on that one. We completely lost all of that. Did y'all hear what I said about the post masters? Yep. No, you did or no? No, we're we're not losing Chance. We're losing Sasha. You're losing me. Oh, okay. That's my fault. I don't know how to fix that. Remember, feed the durable Sasha. Just feed the trouble so you can get your internet back up. Yeah, I know. What's going on? I'm like, man, I pay for some high dollar internet. What's going on? Me, too. I don't know what's happening. Is that better, Susan? Are we Can you hear me now? Am I back on? I hear you clear. Yeah, I hear you too. You're good. Yeah, you're good. Okay. So, I don't know if we can go back to answer that. So, I'll let Susan dictate. But what if you can remember roughly it was a question about you know you're putting in the postmaster when you're driving and we are you using eight nine on a six foot fence what do you normally do chance on that sort of project right so you like I said I used to install postmasters so we would buy 10 foot because I was also new to the driving and everything so we were like hey deeper is better so we would drive I think you could get to like 54 in or 52 inches whatever that was. Well, um, but I do know you can use and people do use 9 foot in length. The biggest thing is just to make sure you're going, you know, you're you're up to ASM standard and going to that 42 inches plus, you know, deep. I think that's the most important thing, you know, making sure you you know, you at least 42 in the ground. Okay. Well, I think that I don't know if there's any more questions from what would Brian and say and and the boys, but uh I think we'll move on unless Susan's got more to throw at me. But going back to our commercial question then um so how do you find commercial jobs? Like how like Ty, how would you how would you what would you tell a residential person that's going, "Hey, I'm thinking of getting into commercial I mean, what's the first couple of pitfalls or or maybe not even pitfalls because they're not pitfalls, but what would you suggest to them to start doing, you know, to start making that transition? Well, um, a couple things, right? It depends on on what kind of commercial work you want to get into, right? Like if you if you're trying to get into specialty stuff, I mean, that's out there. Um, you're going to have to knock on doors, right? But if you're just trying to get in the market just bare bones, trying to get whatever you can, I think Chance mentioned before that he's he's using bid board and that's kind of the first steps, right? So, you're going to get into the hard bid market and you're going to kind of cherrypick the jobs that you can kind of get, right? Because you don't want to and one of the worst things that that people do when they start fence companies, they get it over their head. They figure, hey, let's just sell it and make it work, right? And they struggle and struggle and

Struggle and that kind of puts stresses on relationships, too, because you're not trying to sell the fence. You're trying to sell your company. You're trying to build a relationship with the GC that's on this list so he calls you on the next one rather than having you bid against 10 other fence companies, right? You're gonna have to be low to get in. That's that's just the way it's going to have to be. Get in, do your best work. You're probably have to pay for the first couple jobs. You know, you're probably not going to make much money, but you're looking to gain that relationship and that trust with the GC. The first couple GCs you win jobs with are probably not going to be the right GCs for you. They're probably just shopping around trying to get their their cheapest they can use and abuse you and move on to the next one. But the few that are on there that you want to maintain are the ones you're going after. That's that's probably the best ad advice I give to a a residential going into commercial. And again, with with your reputation, too, you know, always stick to your your morals and stuff like that, too. Always always do the right thing, and that'll carry you no matter what what industry you're doing.

Tell us a bit about your I'm losing them. Yeah, I'm losing them too. Yeah, you now or not? Yeah, I hear you now. So, tell me a bit about you, Chance. Are you like what your company? Is it residential? Is it a little bit of mix of commercial? How did you get into it if you did? Like, tell us a bit about your process. Yeah. So, we are predominantly res residential. Um, we're like I'd say 6040. Our commercial side is growing, but really it's all privately like people general contractors or or our or big businesses are calling us direct, right? We're not really bidding on to softwares or or anything like that. Um, most of our stuff is just, hey, they rang our phone, we answered, and got the job. You know, it was private, privately done. But to go back on um on where you find the jobs, I think that's probably what nine out of 10, you know, contractors problem, right? Well, how do I get to these jobs? because there's nothing there's nothing like driving by 2,000 feet being installed this big eight foot fence and like dang man it would sure be nice if I could at least have an opportunity at doing that right so and that look that happens to me all the time so yeah I mean I think that's most people's you know struggle is man I don't even get I didn't even know that was going to be a thing you know a fence I didn't know they needed a fence so it's fine you know like you said It's the softwares. I'm just finding find phone finding the jobs. Oh, here we go. What is this? Am I reading this correctly, guys? The boost they couldn't control. Has Brian Frederickson got a book he's putting out. This is actually the first time I see this. I don't even think he could write. Who's doing chat? is just chat gpting this. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. He chat GPT the whole book. Oh, you know what it is? It's a comic book. It's all pictures. Yeah, exactly. Exact. Well, that is awesome. Okay, so June 15th, Brian's coming out with Oh, wow. That's going to be a very interesting book. I'm a little scared of trying to read it, but we'll give it a go. That's exciting. So um going back to the going back to this discussion um you know you guys have made some very valid points. So I feel like how do you what's the what's the hurdle of maybe bidding a commercial job versus well let's say you've got the contact you you you've got you got the opportunity to bid. What are some of the differences between bidding a commercial job versus a residential job if if if at all any you could go? In my in my opinion, you know, with with residential, you always got to spell everything out very clearly, right? Every option, every feature that they can add to it, too, because you're trying to upsell, too, right? you're you're coming with that base price and you're giving all the add-ons stuff like that to different features, stuff like that too, from I mean from vinyl to different types of wood fencing, stuff like that too to try to see what fits their budget best, right? And quite honestly, um the more information the better. And in commercial fencing when I got into it was kind of lazy I guess you could say. Like a lot of people were just doing lump sum pricing just hey we're going to install your fence and here's the number, right? And I realized what I learned from commercial and from residential was that once I spelled everything out clearly and broke everything out separately on these bids, I started getting more calls, more questions, right? Because I was holding these GCs to the fire. Before if you miss fencing, like say, hey, we're bidding the whole fence scope on this commercial project and you missed 100 feet of fence under takeoff, you're eating that. You're eating it. So the tried and true way was spelling out every single item that we were bidding on that project so we can be very clear. So when the contract came in, we can use it as an exhibit and spell out exactly what we're doing on it. But because before I would have estimators miss a couple things on it, we would have to eat it, you know, because we didn't spell it out clearly that we're actually bidding those scopes. I mean, as far as even, you know, they would even put, you know, relief roads in some of these fence specs, like on some of these

Larger projects, they'll actually put a relief cut road. you have to cut and grade and gravel these roads that are in the fence section. It's not any fence scope, but they put it in the fence spec section. So, technically, it falls under your responsibility. And if you're bidding all the fencing scope, you're stuck. You're liable for that work regardless if you bid it or not. So, that's why you got to be very careful with your teas and season. And that's the other thing too with commercial work. You have to know contracts. You have to you have to have a good relationship with the GC because you can get burned very easily. Just like with residential, you do a business with the customer, really high-end stuff, you don't get the proper deposit and stuff like that, too. You could be eating and and losing a lot of money, you know, and and so it's both both double-edged swords, you know, with commercial. I think it's a little less of a risk than it is with with residential as far as losing out stuff like that. So, like that's a good question, too. Just I saw Brian paying out my Aussie. I don't know. Brian should be on this, by the way. So, if he's going to pay me out, he should be on this show. Uh Susan's got a really good question. What about cash flow? Commercial doesn't pay as fast, right? What do you guys think about that statement? It depends on who you're targeting, right? Like, if you're if you're targeting projects with customers that can do deposits, you know, that's that's perfect world scenario, but usually it's not. Usually, you're getting these contracts and you're putting the money out and you're waiting 30, 60 days, depending on the terms if this thing's rolling, right? were uh we're residential, you get that deposit check up front, you know what I mean? And that and that's difference in cash flow and stuff like that, too. With with commercial, you're definitely putting your money out there first to maintain these projects. Yeah. And when we when we first started change, when we first started getting to like bigger commercial jobs, we would simply ask, "Hey, can y'all pay 50% upfront?" Like, we would just ask. And if Sometimes they said yes, sometimes they said no. You know, we've honestly been blessed to get it more than not. So, that went a long way. So, really, you only had to float the payroll, which isn't as bad. You know, exactly. And, you know, it depends on and you know, there's one thing about commercial and residential, your relationships will carry you through everything, right? Sasha, for example, Lion Fencing, right? Like if I was to leave and go start a residential company tomorrow, I could do it without any cash. As long as I got my two legs and I got some tools myself, I could start without cash because Sasha, I could work out terms with him because of a relationship and he could float me 30, 60 days depending on on if he depend on the size of the project and stuff like that, too. So if you have relationship with vendors, you literally start today, get a contract with the customer, start the project, you know, based on terms with your vendor, but make sure everything's right. You got to have contracts, stuff like that. you always protect yourself and that's that's the that's the best way I would say to do it. You know, make sure you have a relationship. I mean, it doesn't matter if you have merchants, lion, you know, as long as you have a relationship with vendor that you can trust and build a relationship with on they'll extend you terms even if it's 15 days as long as something that you can work with them to get a project rolling and uh and start your start your career. Yeah, we we we've signed contracts that stated that stated, hey, we're not going to pay you till the home the owner pays me. So, you really pay that's commercial. It's a lot of those commercial projects. So, you gota you got to be like, hey, you know, some some of the contracts you got to pass on to like especially if you're starting out. I mean, if you're if you're expecting to do a $50,000 project and wait three years to get that money, that's that's, you know, that's asking a lot, especially for someone as a startup. So, so Susan, another good question, too. I don't know how this lady has such good questions, right? Um, but is there is there a number that you you think for

Cash flow purposes, um, you know, that you should have when you're transitioning from residential to commercial? Is there sort of a like, you know, is there a number that goes, "Hey guys, you know, when you're transitioning, you might need a percentage or what's a is there a number or an idea of what you really need cash cashwise to transa transition your business in a commercial? It depends if it's your cash or or loan cash, right? Depends, right? Like if it if it's your own personal fund doing it, you know, just make sure you cover your buddies, right? Like Sasha, if we went into business together and I started a project, I got to make sure that money is set aside to pay for those materials because if that job goes sideways or anything, I want to make sure that my relationship with you is still strong so I can, you know, get with you on the next one because if I burn you, there's there's no future. There's no future. I think to sum it up is don't don't bite more than you can chew. Don't bite more than you can chew, right? I mean, I think it's that simple. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, when you're starting off in commercial chance and and maybe you can sort of, you know, elaborate on that, you have a couple of different commercial jobs, right? Or commercial departments, let's say. That's probably not the right word, but you've got private commercial, you got public commercial, um you got industrial. So I think it I think that transition like when you're transitioning or if you choose if you if you look transition what is your thoughts on that is it is it because you talked about something that's really amazing like you're driving past that 2,000 lineal foot job and you're just like man it would be nice like I think I can handle that right but the but to that is well firstly how do I bid it how does a GC or whoever the owner is know who I am that I can handle that one. Two, what's it going to cost to handle? Right? Three, what's the paperwork to handle it? And four, when am I going to get paid? And and I feel that transition period, you know, is it better to go into private? Is it, you know, do you chase these public works jobs? Um, do you chase these big industrial? It's I think that's the daunting part for anyone thinking to go residential to commercial, right? Because there are different um parts to the commercial industry. Um and how do you simplify it, right? So I think that to me is something that people need to understand, right? Like do you like you said it before Chance and Tyler's very clear about the pitfalls or just obstacle? I don't look them as pitfalls. I think they're obstacles, right? um you know do you you know what do you two think do you sort of come out of residential if you're looking and stick to private like start off in the private sector where maybe the money comes a bit quicker like you said chance maybe you can ask the question cuz where me and Ty where I'm from and where you know Tyler spent a lot of time in California Arizona Tyler can we ask for deposits on most of these in commercial jobs you doesn't mean you're going to get Yeah. Yep. And that's what I think, you know, Chance, what you were saying before, ask the question, right? So, going back to what do you guys think about the different departments in commercial? Um, is there a better one to start in? Is it not? Is it just like what do you guys think? You know, well, like you said, I personally think Yeah. No, please, please go ahead. Sure. Yeah. So I personally think I think it's um first you have to ask a few questions like how much manpower do you have you know um how much cash do you have and where are these jobs too you know where are they are they out of state are they in state or where so I think you have to know that you have to know your company first and then that will tell you where where to where you can go in my in my We went um I mean private private commercial kind of fell into our our our you know to our feet and it worked out. You know, we we've had small jobs. We have you know that we were able to to see how the cash flow works, right? You know, we've waited for $18,000 for 90 days before. So, you know, which is a lot of money, right? It is a lot of money but it's not 50,000 60,000. So all

Right we were able to see all right can we manage 18,000 right? Can can we break off you know can we break off three people you know at a drop of a dime sometimes you know so it's kind of like it's your own feel to your your own company. Yeah I like that answer. I think you know Ty I don't know what you think. I think that's that's a really good response because you're right, everybody's different. Everybody's in a different situation. Um, so yeah, you you have to be that transition has to you have to look at yourself and your company. Uhoh. Uhoh. What is this nonsense? Here we go. So, uh, here's a bit of an alert here. I don't know. This guy without a hat, without his cowboy hat, just doesn't look right. So, on tap of the new 2025 membership cards will now give you access to register for available education classes suppliers FWA health guys just before I keep going I don't know about you guys coming into the fencing industry I felt like you know we're sort of divided we sort of get a bit scared about opening up you know like talking about what how our company works versus other companies you know and getting together But I haven't really seen a movement like FWA that's really gone out there and you know like health insurance right I don't know how it is for you Chance you know you know for Tai it's a little bit for Tyler it's a little bit different maybe but even basic stuff like education and health insurance in our industry that that to me is a huge blessing because I feel like man us those us people in fencing and us guys that are in fencing you know we don't necessarily have access cuz you know we're smaller companies whatever you know lines not the biggest company in the world know we try to provide health insurance and all of this stuff but when you see what FWA is trying to offer I mean it blows me away because you know it helps us little companies be able to support our workers right I feel like when I read stuff I know what do you guys think about you know the FWA health insurance all the networking sort of pivot a little bit Like let me ask you two personal questions about you know the FWA show we already talked about it earlier October 1st to October 3rd is the floor show September 29th is the education what is F what have you what is your guys opinion of FWA and the Vegas show coming up

Yeah yeah so the FWA um to brag on it a little is we we I have a a plumber friend, right? Different different fields um in the trade. Well, we I start telling them, "Hey, man, we have this this FWA, you know, fence workers association. They, you know, you they offer, you know, health insurance, we have demo days, we have, you know, started telling him all the events." He's like, "What?" He's like, "Y'all have all that in the fence industry?" And it was like really mind, he was mind blown. He was like, I was like, "Yeah, man." I was like, "We go to Vegas. I've done went to Vegas three times now." To experience, you know, what what Brian has started. He's like, "Bro, no way." And he was really was mind blown that that, you know, something in the fence industry is so big and and it is a blessing. Yeah, I agree. I feel like it's time to start taking care of the fences, you know, the fencing people out there. You know, we try to put everyone in a box. Oh, you're a guy with one truck. No, stop labeling. Anyone that's in the fence industry deserves to have, you know, the resources and be treated with respect and, you know, reading this one tap, you know, um FWA's joined the one tap um connection, you know, to bring all these things together. Um even the networking events, the Spanish events. Now, what about FWA women? like, you know, those ladies are out there really trying to, you know, encourage more more um more female presence because, you know, us three guys are pretty ugly, man. It's better to have some of that, you know, that presence and they're doing a great job and I feel like, you know, I don't know about you, Tyler, you know, because it's I like to get your guys perspective because I'm a supplier now. So, these shows, you know, is all about meeting YouTube for me. So I feel for me why I'm on that pom pom with FWA is the first show for us the lion was amazing you know um because we got to meet people that I never got to meet before and I thought I knew most fencing guys in so I tend to find out I don't know me much and then the second year was that follow one so for me that show is so cool because I get to to meet people like you two. What do you What do you think, Tyler, about like, you know, is it pros, cons? What do you think of what FWA is up to? Well, I'll touch on the on the the medical insurance stuff like that, too. It's also a great tool for employee retent retention, right? So, say you're you're a guy wants to expand, you know, but you can't really afford the health insurance to get a new employee, you know, having this behind you is is great. It's great, you know, to offer health insurance, stuff like that, too. But overall, the fence show um it's it's still young in my opinion. I' I've been to one and uh you know, it's kind of, you know, I've I've been to the other fence show um for years, fence attack, stuff like that, too. And I've always I've always been interested in how, you know, the same people go the same year, stuff like that. So, it's a lot of repetitive stuff like that. And, you know, over time, you kind of it kind of gets redundant, right? Like you don't really feel the need to go because you've already seen everything, right? and where the fence show can change and what we've talked about before is maybe introduce a different you know side of it right have our vendors have our fence guys and also maybe bring some GC's in it too right because Vegas if it's in the same place every year right instead of jumping around different states stuff like that too like like the other fencing association show is people know the dates and times they know location and just getting some GC's out there too and say hey look you know while you're at the fence show why don't you look at some products and maybe some installers at the same time too kind of mix it of both where the other people are just kind of it's almost like a you know it's a it's a boy club right hey the same usual suspects they put on these big booths and stuff like that too and for smaller fence companies you get there okay I'm already doing business with merchants already doing business with these guys stuff like that too but there's no really who am I selling to right it's mostly I'm buying when you get when you go to these things that's just the only opinion but I really like what he did with the show um it's it's definitely uh different different bigger than I thought it was going to be Because usually with these things that are startups are very small, very very small. But all the all the all the usual

People came out even more. Um actually got me out there because I I never went to these shows because I thought they were a waste of time just to be honest. But getting out there meeting people and just kind of seeing where your competitors at, seeing the vendors, stuff like that too. And that's the other thing a key to success for a lot of these smaller guys is uh direct right like Lion Manufacturing stuff like that too. We have our relationships with our other big uh corporations like you know Master Halo merchants and stuff like that too. as long as we're diversified and we actually have lion and stuff like that too for specialty items like iron, you know, I mean, they're not selling chain link, anything like that, but if we want to be competitive on these big projects, you know, unfortunately, you know, not everything's manufactured in the United States, you have to go overseas or some of these projects to be competitive. Um, so you have to have a good resource for that. These fence shows are great for that to go meet people and just try them out. I mean, you're you're not going to you're not going to be 100% with every fence vendor, but as long as you find one and and find the quality, that's that's that's the the benefit to the fence show. Yeah. And we're seeing, I think, you know, like what we're talking about, you know, you're going to have a show, it has to benefit the fence people, like the people actually installing the fence, you know, and I like that idea. You know, what about GC's, right? I think, you know, that's that's great, right? If you can have your personal, again, we're talking commercial tonight. If we can have, you know, your GC's or, you know, the ones you try, whatever that is, come to these shows, it's just going to strengthen relationship with them. Anyway, um, and show them also, hey, look, there's there's all sorts of people out there. There's there's all sorts of products that you can use. Um, yeah, and I like that. I think that's that's that's something different that I think we've strayed away from. I think we're scared of it, you know, at at sometimes to, oh man, I can't bring a GC. That's my, you know, this guy Joe Blow fence is going to know, you know, and I'm like, I feel like as a fence person, you just got to be confident with what you're doing. You said it before, Chance is really amazing. As by the way, on the screen, um, you guys can see some of the first time exhibitors this year, um, at the at the fence show. So, that's really cool. What's really cool, I can see some fence install companies obviously boo at having a booth. That's cool. I think that's healthy. I think you know you want if you're a fence install company, get get a booth. Why not? If you can afford it, right? It's all about affordability and if that's your area. I know, you know, if Vegas or, you know, SoCal or stuff like that isn't maybe your area, but I think that's you got to get out there, you know. Um, and beat the drums and beat your own drums, you know. Um, oh, I just got told they're distributors, so there you go. Don't listen to Sash. They're not fence installers. They're distributors. Um, but that's a cool time. That's a cool thing. Um, and they're all new. Like, that's exciting. when you have when you're growing I think a show and and you've got a list that big of new vendors that's that's cool that's to me real cool so we up guys I know um we're all busy doing our stuff um I have a question that I want to ask you guys to to pivot back to commercial how do you so chance I know you know Tyler and you guys are in completely two different it might as well be two different worlds, right? Um but when you're reading plans in my experience in in the install side, man, I could never find fence properly. Like you Tyler, you talked about, you know, miss, you know, if you miss that 100 ft, you know, you miss something that's on you if you're bidding whole scope of work. Like what would you tell people out there that are maybe even looking at bits right now like fencing and they're you know what what are some things they be wary of um as you know or or they're actually looking at plans on commercial jobs well I would say get properly trained I mean does uh I don't know if there's any training courses through the fence show that does plan work or stuff like that too but I would say definitely take take a couple classes I mean there's always the school YouTube, stuff like that,

Too, just so you can get familiar with it. I mean, it's not going to give you the, you know, a toz instructions, you know, you got to kind of read between the lines, but educate yourself. You know, always educate yourself because if you jump in without the education, you know, the GC's can smell that, right? And or, you know, you can tell them, hey, look, I'm new to this stuff like that, too. But if you're too green, they're not going to have confidence in you, right? So, you got to know a little bit of what you're talking about or fake it till you make it, right? So, educate yourself. Um, maybe, you know, use resources. And another thing, too, is, you know, maybe collaborate with another fence company, right? Always put yourself out there if you're residential trying to get in commercial, maybe knock on the door with another fence company that's pretty busy and say, "Hey, look, man, you know, how about a collaboration? How about I install some work for you?" You know, and maybe you see if they got any opportunities for you to be a seller, so you can start getting exposed to some of these job sites. They'll give you a work order and stuff like that, too, and see how a real fence company does things, right? And it's kind of, you know, it's it's a two-way street. you know, you're helping them and they're helping you. You know, we're all making money here, but you're also learning on the job, too, right? Because a lot of the stuff is learn as you go. Learn as you go. Yeah. In in my experience, not not going to go too wide on this, but um it brought it brought my idea to my my mind whenever you said use your res uh like relationships or other fence contracts. We got hit up by a pretty big developer in our area for a pretty giant fence. It was like like 12,000 foot of wood fence. Job came, it was very custom. Um job came out to like 200 something,000. 250. Well, it was very um overwhelming, right? Uh everything was in different spots and when you give you your plans, they gave me like 300 something plans and it had all kind of different elevations and all this. So I was like, "Look, it's way over my head." So what I did was I reached out to somebody who had more experience and he was more than welcome to to share that knowledge and I'm sure he would, you know, wouldn't mind me saying his name. You know, his name was Tony Thornton. Reach out, hey, this is way more in my head, man. Can you, you know, help me a little bit? This I'll figure out the whole bid. Can you help me look at the numbers? Am I being this am I bitten this close to you know right? Um because there's things to think about like in these big job is like lay down areas uh you know things like that that you may not even realize if it's your first time, right? If it's your first time. So reach out to the people that did it before and they more than likely 99 out of 100 times will help you out. Yeah, I like that. I think collaboration. I think you know what excites me about even, you know, talking with you guys for the first time, you know, meeting you, Chance, and and listening to your story and, you know, Tyler and me have known each other for a fairly long time. Dude, we just got to collaborate. Like, it's not the end of the world, you know, like you got to get I like what Tyler said. I love what you said. You Tyler just said, got to get out there, collaborate, and you just did it. And you know, it's tough. Yeah. Cuz you got to put yourself out there. Maybe someone's going to tell you no. That's okay. You're in a community of people that Yeah. Exactly. And there's people that will say yes. Um because I feel for me that would be my big, not big, but one of the big pitfalls is transition from residential to commercial sizes. One, like you said, different specs like different locations. Where are we on the plans? Like I remember looking at plans going we're in the mechanical section. What how is fencing in, you know, and we're in the we're in the electrical section. You just like and you miss this like Tyler said and all of a sudden now you're lump with thousands and thousands of dollars that are on you, you know. So it's, you know, collabor I think and I'm excited about this new program. Ty, just to add to your question about the education, FWA is going to have the commercial

Education at the at the show coming up. Um, which is hopefully, you know, we'll collaborate with some really good commercial people, residential people, and sort of start really helping them go, okay, well, don't be scared. Get in there. I like it. Um, but what what's amazing is the word collaboration. I feel like I don't know why we've lost that in fencing. Um Chance, this is the last question and we we got to go. But Chance and were you taught born in fencing? Did you sort of stumble into fencing? How was how did you get into fencing? No, I would I didn't have nothing to do with fencing. U first generation kind of just thought I could build a good fence. I did have some carpentry background. I worked for a general contractor building houses. So, look, I knew power tools. I thought a fence had to be level across the top, right? Um, you know, so I struggled. It was a struggle at first. Didn't make no money at first. Thought I was making a lot of money, you know. So, we've grew a lot. And look, Fence has a lot of uncontrollables, right? A lot of uncontrollables. weather, things in the ground, unmarked utility lines, private lines. I mean, you name it, we deal with it. So, it's, you know, it takes a community. It takes, you know, takes every everybody all effort to to be successful. Yeah, I agree. Ty, just wrapping it up. What about you? Do you fall into f I mean, you've been in fencing what now? How long? since 2010 2010. So 15 years. 15 years. Yeah. I started off digging holes. Definitely wasn't born into it. Started off digging holes and moved up to operations and now into sales and then into the full operations, I guess you could say. Yeah. And guys, as we wrap up, I just want to shout out again, uh, the fence show, fence show, Las Vegas, South Point. Um, education program starts September 29th. All of the programs that are out there, um, I know there'll be more and more advertising for people to look at. The floor show starts October 1st to 3rd. So, everyone out there, come and support this show. Um, see what see what you know, this community. I feel like we're starting to create a community finally and the more we can talk about this and encourage other um you know fence people in in in America to go collaborate. It's not let's all help each other at the end of the day. I feel like we're more it's more power to our community if we help each other rather than ostracize each other because you're the enemy. So guys, I want to thank you. I think I made my first uh hosting podcast. I know it was probably bad. So, I appreciate you guys putting up with me. Thank you for your time, Chance. It was so awesome to meet you. I can't wait to watch what you and your company do. Um, and you know, Ty, thank you. Um, you've been a great mate and I can't, you know, you know, can't wait for your space, too, and what's going on in Arizona. And, uh, guys, thanks for everything and let's, um, yeah, I look forward to hopefully seeing everyone in at the Fen Show. Pleasure. Yes, sir. Y'all have a good night. You, too.