The Future of Fence Distribution and the Direct Sale Debate with Sasha, Sean CMM and Matt Warner

Hey,

Hey.

Hey, hey, what's going on? It is Wednesday. Thank you guys for coming on. Sasha, Sean, I know we brought you on early because there is a lot to talk about today and a lot going on in the industry. So, uh, let's introduce you guys real quick. Sean CMM, tell us a little bit about yourself, man. Yeah, so my name is Sean Bahinsky. I'm the president of CMM. We're located in South Bend. Um, most people know about us. We make machines that route vinyl, aluminum, fencing. Um, been around over 25 years and looking forward to being on the show. Yeah. So, um, you actually, um, I I know we've talked to you, you know, lots of times before. You've been at a couple of our shows and stuff, too. So, it's always really cool to see you there. So, um, you actually have probably I is I there's really only a couple main manufacturer these machines in our country and you probably are quickly, if you haven't already, became one of the main the main machines going in around the the country right now, right? Yeah. So, we really only have one competitor and uh our owner actually used to own that company also. And then there's a European company that's kind of entering the industry slowly, but we'll probably talk about them later on. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for coming on. I know it's uh something we've been talking about for a while and uh I know I just saw you a week or so ago in person and we'll get into that in a minute. Thanks again. So if you don't know who Sasha is, let's uh let's hear from Sash. What's going on, man? Oh mate, it's a barmy Wednesday in California. So those of you that don't know, yes, I have an accent. It's very deep south. Um but yeah, work for Lime Fencing Steel Supply and um yeah, we just we love fence and we do we our specialties iron and temp fencing is really what we specialize in. Nice. So, are you at the fence show right now? Is that what I see behind you? Yeah, I've been there the whole since since uh since September. I haven't left, mate. See the back the boxes in the background? Yeah. You're just claiming your spot early. I don't know. This is like like a new iPhone coming out. You just said screw it. I'm just going to wait. Yeah, my family's a bit disappointed, but I'm still here. So, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get a bill here in a minute for uh for not letting the space up. So, I think uh I need to come and see you. Get you out of there. So, what uh what's been going on this week? You broke up a little bit. Hey, so what's been going on this week? Anything exciting? You just been busy working for me? Yeah, like it's been a great like the industry sort of on our end from a supply side has has has had that little bit of a spike, you know, coming into that, you know, Thanksgiving uh Halloween, Christmas, you know, everyone's trying to wrap things up and so it's been a really busy probably last three weeks. Um, and then of course we're leading up to, you know, again as an Aussie you like, but you're leading up to my second time being involved in an election, right? So, um, or third actually. So, you know, it's it's it's an interesting time, right? The climate's very interesting in in the business world, especially in California. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. It's been a crazy this election year. Uh, it's made everything crazy. It's made the the shows, the business, the everything right down to the installation companies. We're all feeling it. We're feeling We always feel an election year, but this year I think everybody's feeling it a little bit more even than the normal election year. And I don't know if because last election year we were we were going into a little stronger economy or something, but it's uh definitely affecting a lot of us um in a bad way. So, um it's unfortunate that we're all feeling it, but so we we feel your pain. Sean, uh you got anything exciting going on? Uh anything since I saw you over at uh over at Defense Camp? Yeah. So, our our Q4 and Q1 are really like our biggest two quarters because that's when most of the fencers are kind of getting out of their boom time and they're starting to a have to spend tax dollars and b starting to get ready for next year. So, now is the time they want the machines to start routing their vinyl aluminum for next year. So now basically from like October to March is like our boom time, which is

Awesome. So yeah, we're pretty excited. Wow. So we're all going to come have party at your house since we can't afford to have parties at ours, right? So if anybody needs to borrow any money to get through the hard season, give Sean a call over at CM. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But we're but we're closing out October here, breast cancer um awareness month and um I know the women of FWA were pretty pretty strong on that and a lot of stuff. It was really exciting to see all the pink and and stuff that was going out there. So we do want to mention that again uh you know at the this probably our last podcast before the end of October, but that doesn't mean we all can't still uh you know still tell people about it later on. So we don't want to end just in just in October. I know cancer's uh plays a big role in influencing our family and Sasha it's it's affected yours as well and and Sean I know we've all felt it you know at some point in our family. So let's all encourage um anybody in our family it's time for a checkup. Go out there and uh get the I don't even know what they call it mamograms or whatever they do on the women and have that stuff on us men if we're turning 50. Go do your uh go do your duty. Get it over with. No pun intended. I got 10 more years. Oh, you younganss. Just just on a side note, like you know, Brian, I know you've personally gone through it. I've personally gone through it. You know, on you know, not me, you know, my wife. Your wife. Please get yourself checked. I don't care how old you are. My wife got diagnosed at 33. We nearly lost her. So, age is not Yeah. And I love what FW women doing. Go get yourself checked. It's just worth it, you know. Yeah. finding out at stage one is uh the difference between it literally almost being curable opposed to stage four where you're getting chemo and radiation for the rest of your life, you know, um and and it's there's only a 20% chance of surviving it five years. So finding out even a year or two early is the difference between you living another 20, 30, 40 years or or you know living maybe five years. So it's that big of a deal and you know we found out at age 30 my wife was feeling it. So it's a big deal. So everybody uh definitely get out there and promote that. Um CMM's got an event coming up if I remember correctly. Uh we we talked about this at uh fence camp though. So tell us about that. What what what you know I know uh FWA and Fencework Association we want we're actually kind of become a big part of this this event you got going for the vinyl industry. So tell us about how that came about and um we appreciate you bringing us in and what you're going to be doing at that. So I'm pretty excited about this event. this is something we've been wanting to do for a while and actually I was down at fence camp with Brian and Sean and telling them about it and they're like, "Man, we want to help. You know, we want to partner with you." So, it's going to be a two-day event. It's going to be a Friday and a Saturday, April 11th and 12th. So, Friday is going to be mainly vinyl day. Homeland's already said they're going to sponsor all the vinyl for us. And, um, Sean's going to uh we're going to route the vinyl. Sean's going to demo how to build the fence with our vinyl, with our machines. We're going to have lunch on site, tours on site, and then we're going to go to a South Bin Cubs game. We have a big suite already reserved for 200 people, all you can eat, drink, fireworks after the game, and then the next day we're gonna half a day. Saturday morning will be aluminum day. and then people can go about and and and enjoy their weekend. But it's going to be a family-friendly event. Um we're beyond pumped up to to host it and sp and and have you guys help sponsor it. And that's in Indiana. So what's the nearest airport if somebody was looking to see what it's going to take to get there? So South So yeah, the biggest one Southbend is is a semi- regional hub. Um, South Bend flies a lot of flights out of Florida fly direct. Charlotte flies direct. Vegas flies direct. And then Midway in Chicago is like an hour and a half. So, um, a lot of guys in like LA are probably going to come Midway, which will be really cool. So, you were saying that for aluminum and vinyl. So, you're gonna be doing

Some aluminum training as well, right on site. Yep. Yep. So, vinyl will be Friday, aluminum will be Saturday, and we're going to be rocking and rolling, man. We're we're jacked up. only only 200 seats available. So, what is that like $10,000 each to come or can they Yeah, free.

Oh man, I feel like uh we might lo the rest is on us. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. We Yeah, that's cool. Um so that's even a better deal than the 10,000 I was getting ready to spend to come do it. So I'm Yeah, that's California dollars. Yeah, that's like Yeah, that's that's some stuff they charge down in California where Sasha's from, you know, that for all hamburgers and stuff that they're making. Yeah. You know, so so um fence camp, man. Uh how'd you like that? I loved it. I mean, I it was my first time ever first I actually went to college down in Evansville. So, um, it a it's always great to go back to that city, but b I mean Sean, holy cow, talk about a host. He's a unreal host, you know. I mean, his wife's cooking us breakfast. You were you were there with me. And, you know, and then to build a fence with with 15 other guys was awesome, you I mean, just a talk shop and and talk about life and being a dad and being a brother and being just a man, you know, a husband with 15 other great guys. I mean, it it was honestly it was like refreshing for me. I mean, my my wife even was like, "You needed that." I was like, "Yeah, I did." Yeah. Well, my fence life ain't just about fence. It's about gate operators and access controls and door controls and all that stuff as well. So, bringing that up, Sash, I know I called you. I was coming down to California and I'm like, "Man, what are you doing? I'm going to be there and uh you need to be there with me." And you just showed up. Uh we went to the Wasa uh convention that they had in in Tmacula and that was a that was a blast, wasn't it? Yeah, it was awesome. And you know, thanks Brian. And I think that's what's cool about this connection because there's certain things you just don't know about. Like you think you're in the fencing industry, but you know, there's just things we don't know, you know, that is going on and around. So, it was awesome to get the call and I didn't want to meet with you. Thank you, JC Jury. You guys made my day. You know, Brian on the other hand, it was an awesome show, mate. It was It was good to see from my end. Um and also something that now I can tell my clients, hey guys, look, this is really geared towards things that you guys need and you know, you got direct access to amazing products um and stuff in the industry that you don't really realize. They sort of co-mingle with us, right? like on a big on a bigger scale too. Yeah, it was awesome. Like I mean venue was great. Um yeah, I didn't lose money so I can't complain much. I won't tell my wife. So but no, it was awesome. They did a great job and I felt like that um I like the intimacy if I could say that. Again, politically incorrect, but I felt that it was cool. It was like a nice show that you got to really spend time with vendors. Yeah. um you know on a real 101 like it was it was it was a real uh it was a cool environment. Yeah. Yeah. I always I always like I mean you know this was um the first time I went to the one down there in California at the Pachena Casino. It was like an Indian casino and stuff and I appreciate you coming. You would think you wouldn't think I get nervous at conventions and expose since I do one myself. But um I do I get nervous. So it was not you know even myself when I go to these things because you walk in and it's like you go by yourself. You're like well it's going to be weird. Do I walk up? And you know, when I'm not talking to people at the exhibitors, am I just going to be standing there on my phone looking weird? Like, you know, I got no one to talk to. Sean, he just dumped me, man. Like, I was there. I was the one that was weirded out. He just dumped me, man. He just was like, I'm out. Like, but I need you to walk in with me, I need you guys to walk in with me. You gave me the confidence to go to the party and then after a drink, I was I was ready to have a good time. So, it was fun though. I was amazed um at how how connected the industries were and a lot of those exhibitors were um exhibiting at our show as well, you know, for in Las Vegas. It was it was a lot of crossover. So um and a lot of people don't know that Wasa is one of the um you know, one of the main inspirations behind what a lot of the

Stuff I did with the trade shows and stuff. So um definitely loved what they were doing. And I think it and next thing you know, three hours went by and I don't feel like there was ever really kind of a a slow a slow moment when we weren't chatting with people and meeting new new people. So that was cool. So, thanks again for coming on that. I know your wife kind of um made you hang out with me that night, so that was kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. We won't we won't send a live podcast what why she said that, but Yeah. Yes. Yes. I was glad. And yes, and I watched JC Jury's comments. I did lose my cell phone for about an hour there somewhere. Yes. I panicked for an hour and Mary saved my life. Yes. And then we went to that steakhouse, man. That steakhouse was it was a nice steakhouse, but man, how hard I mean, how hard was it to get a drink? That was insane, wasn't it? Hard was to get food. It was like Yeah. So, so um just because Sean King I know Sean's here, but just because Sean King isn't here doesn't mean that there is not time for Brian. It So, so we're gonna do this in his honor. So, who's this one first for? Um let's see what it is. What's a good question to ask? Oh, this is going to be for you, Sash. Uh, what what's a good question to ask about iron panels when trying out a new source or manufacturer? Uh, [snorts] that's a really good question, right? Um, I'm going to be biased because I'm going to say lying, right? But no, I think I think service is the biggest like and information, right? and options because you might be looking like you might be doing a bid and and let's say it's five whatever it is and there's an option for a standard panel as well as a custom panel. So, it's options. It's like I think a really good iron supplier should be able to walk you through multiple options and not just go, "Oh, we don't do that." Or, "Hey, could we do this? Could we do this rackable product? Hey, you want a two ra don't have it in stock? How quick's it going?" I think it's information about options. I feel if you got if you're working with an iron company that will work with you, partner up partner up on on your projects and what you're bidding, you'll find you're going to win more jobs, right? Because you might have gone in there for this 5'2 rail, but there's an option for a 5 foot rackable or a 5 foot3 rail that's like it's available. It's a better, you know what I mean? So I feel I feel that's what's going to define an iron guy because I feel and Brian you've been doing this a long time. Same with you Sean. Fencing hasn't really changed a lot for 20 years. Like yeah there's innovation you know like your machine Sean but I mean the industry as a whole hasn't changed that much. And I feel like the missing element is service. So a good iron supplier won't just go no or here's your price. Hey, could we go this route? Or, you know, hey, you want to use these 2in 16 gauge posts, but 14 gau, you know, so I think it's options and and that partnership of it doesn't just have to be one thing, right? There's options. So, yeah, and I think the definition of a supplier is changing um as well. We're going to get into that probably in a little bit here, too. Um, it's definitely what we considered a traditional supplier 10 years ago is not the same today. um you know it's it's it's went from you know our distributors and stuff on a local level to you know the larger ones back and maybe it's focusing back on your local distributors again. So it's going to be interesting to see where that goes. But um great answer and I couldn't agree with you more. So uh what's the next question? What do we got? This one is Sean asking who's this one going to be for? Uh see going through an issue I've never faced. I'm not sure if this is burnout, but I just feel like I've lost motivation, so to speak. We are a small company and the business is profitable. Just curious how some others face burnout and overcome it, Sean. That was going to be I think for you for me. I'm But I'm going to take it if you don't mind. Go for it. But but but nonetheless, um burnout's tough, man, in our industry because we get, you know, I think that um if you can be consistent in the beginning, uh you know, ambition sometimes will be um it will be really overwhelming in the

Beginning. You'll get a real big spike, but if you're not consistent, you don't get yourself organized in the beginning and you don't do a slower pace. And I'm guilty of that. I'm really guilty of um going and just out going full guns out and without having it fully planned out and and then it typically will fizzle out at some point on some things because I didn't plan it out and it didn't take small steps, you know what I mean? Instead of actually and keep it consistent. I went real big and then it ended up just fizzling out in the long run. So I think to keep yourself from burning out, you got to keep uh keep yourself engaged and maybe uh maybe even even expand, maybe hire if you get tired in one one department in your company, maybe you need to work on hiring somebody or training somebody to take over. And maybe you it's not that you're burned out, maybe you've just reached mentally the max that you're willing to put into being a sales guy and maybe you got to hire a salesperson and start doing material sales or start getting into gate operators or something. So, um, I think the easiest way to face burnout is not necessarily just taking all your time off and saying, "I need more time off." But I think it's, uh, trying to reinvent yourself, figure out how you can enjoy your company again, so you don't lose everything that you did build. Because it's real easy to lose everything that you spent 5 10 years building by getting too distracted though, and and then taking too much time off and losing control of your company and saying, "I'm just going to let someone else run it." So, um, great question. It says anonymous member. I wish there was a way to find out who that was. I think we should uh uh have a hotline for people to call in when they're uh when they're feeling like that and we can buy them a beer or a cigar. Oh, this is Well, this one's for me. There you go. So, Sean, I'll let you read the question and answer it since I stole the last two questions. That's all right. What is the typical maintenance schedule for vinyl routing machines and how long

Oh, I don't know if that broke up. That might have broke up for everybody else. So, I'm I mean the life expectancy. Oh, Sean, I don't know if you can hear us. Uh your your signal is going out. So, um I'm going to read the question for everybody and hopefully we can get your answer on it. Uh what is the typical maintenance schedule for vinyl routing machines and how does maintenance impact long-term performance? I'm thinking about purchasing one. Yeah. Can you hear me? Yep, we can hear you now. I don't know if you heard the question. Yeah, I did. Yep. So, typically our machines can last anywhere from 15 to 20 years. Um, I mean, typically a maintenance schedule, they'll need some routine maintenance every 5 years or so, and it's it's very coste effective. So, um I mean these the longevity on these things are, you know, 15 years and they'll pay for itself within the first three years. So, as it's a no-brainer more or text me or email me or whatever, feel free to do so. Yeah, we'll have them text and email you because we can't hear you. So, um Okay. Right. So, but um that being said, uh great I mean great questions today. We got to uh applaud Susan for uh going out there and finding those questions and digging through uh fence industry only. So, uh if you're curious about I mean those questions pop up all day every day at fence industry only um over on Facebook. So, um definitely go in there and join that group. Um let us know for some reason if you didn't get approved because sometimes the system automatically, you know, declines. Yeah, I've been asking you for like six months, man. What's going on, Susan? They're not they just keep maxing me out. Well, it's not that's not really necessarily that you've been blocked. So, anyway, let's move on to uh subject on another group. Basically, you've been blocked, right? Just check add that to the list. Right. So, what we really wanted to talk about though, um Sasha, especially since you're here and we're we're probably uh more closely tied together on um the industry and how it's going with the materials and being purchased and things like that. um Sean on the manufacturing side but uh for equipment and things. So he's got you know different uh different issues with the industry and and different things he likes about the industry but um let's talk about the future of the industry when it comes to um distrib distribution manufacturing and let's just say you know as a whole you know I mean how do you how do you think how do you feel about it right now? I mean have you noticed there's definitely a change happening? I mean I've noticed from the fence shows there's a lot more European and um Asian markets coming in. Definitely at all the shows you're going to see a lot more of their panels and I mean I've been using import panels for 20 years. So um what you know all you know already and it's always been here but now it's a lot more in your face and it's a lot more spreading around the country. So how do you think that's affecting the industry? Oh is this going to be PG rated or Rated in fancy? Look, that is a real hot topic and I think in our industry, I think the industry as a whole is starting to go, hang on a minute, we need to discuss this or we need to be part of it. Um, yeah, people can complain all they want. Um, and I mean we don't have enough time to go through the list um for this show, but there's a big change and you know we complain a lot in this industry about oh well there's this European company here or there's this Asian company here. My question is why are they here? Right. We keep we keep complaining but we're not asking the why from again this is just from the supplier side, right? Yeah. So I feel that they're here is because we as suppliers haven't been taking care of the industry as we should be. So to answer your question, Brian, yeah, I would love to buy nothing but I would love to sell nothing but American products. 100% all day. I will always tell everyone the quality is up here. Yes. But what has happened over the years, we've allowed certain companies to take

Control of our industry. And if I can backtrack, you know, fencing is not that big an industry in the grand scheme of contracting, right? It's not as big as electrical, it's not as big as plumbing. So relatively speaking, we're a smaller industry means we're more tight knits, but somehow along the line, we've allowed people to dictate where I buy, who I sell to, where I can purchase. And I'm sorry if you're a fencing person and you got to go to Home Depot and Home Depot unloads you if you're on this. That's no disrespect to you guys at all, but there are professionals that have to go there to purchase cuz we've told them no, you're you fit in this category. We've I'll call it the sand pit of fencing. I don't know who created it, but no, you got to stay in this sand pit and you can go to that. Hang on a minute. and I'm in the greatest country in the world and I'm sorry it's built on capitalism which is not a bad thing guys like I'm sorry it's a good thing. Um but once you start to dictate where people can go like you've forgotten what this industry is all about and I feel it's it's it's I don't think it's necessarily a good thing but it's the way the industry is going and you have to jump on board. Here's my line. If I can say this, Brian, please don't throw a dart in my head. You're either in or you're out. So, there's no in between anymore because I feel like people have had enough. Like, people are just tired of going, "Well, hang on a minute. What? I can only buy here." And you go to a show and you go to the booth, you meet Sean, and he then says, "Oh, no. You can't buy from me. You got to go down to Joe." I'm like, then why aren't you promoting your stuff at the show? Right? And we've allowed the Europeans and a Asian companies to come in who were selling to distributors, right? Don't get the model hasn't changed. They were selling to Lion and to Sha's to a coin. Um, but we've now because we've just told them, "Oh, we're only going to buy X or we we're signing an ex exclusivity, but oh, you can only sell here and and not over here." And we're going to give Joe Blow Fence 50% reduction while Joe Smith fence has to pay 50%. I'm like, come on. it's got convoluted. So, the shift for me, it's it's here, right? And where's it going to be when you would if you had asked me this eight months ago, Brian? And I mean, you've talked a little bit like it's it's a little unraveling when you go look at my our booth back there and across the road was Europe across that side. Well, you know, and you know what I find Yeah. What I find interesting is um we're a patriotic country. I mean is you know the United States I mean we we we love this country and a lot of people live here and um you know it's it's a we are we pride ourselves on buy American if you can buy American if you can and I mean and we are a pretty conservative industry as a whole. So uh if if you if you can't keep fence companies buying American products what have we done wrong? I mean you'd have to really screw the industry up or screw up your company if you can't get them to keep buying your American products in America in a conservative industry. So, it makes me wonder what is causing this shift. Um, what is causing um people to to to stop being as loyal to American products? And if it's just price, then where did we drop the ball? I mean, was our did did we did we start did we did we stop with the service and the quality of our products and and and did we stop competing on the service level and then it came down to just price? What changed is what I guess what what I'd like to find out. Have Sean, have you noticed anything on the on the on the manufacturing on the equipment side as well? Yeah, I mean I think I think two things. One, you know, um a lot of our customers are being are telling us two things, you know. One, they're trying to buy products from, you know, American suppliers and a lot of times they're a local mom and pop shop. you know, he's working out of a beatdown truck and he's trying to get going. And unfortunately, they're being told that they have to go through their competitor, their biggest competitor in the area to buy the product. And I mean, that's that's not

Going to work. If if you're my biggest competitor, Brian, and you're the beast in the city, and I'm starting up, I have to go through you to buy product. That's not going to work. I mean, you're gonna charge me triple and then you're you're gonna get the job, right? Yeah. Literally gonna break my neck from doggy. Like, I'm literally break. Yeah. Well, so, so then their plan B, I'm being told, is they're looking at these like Asian and Chinese and European products and they're turning yellow after 3 months or they're a penny, you know, to the dollar here and they're they're breaking instantly. So, I mean, some of these small dogs, I feel really bad for them. and they're like up a creek without a paddle. And that's So you think that it's not just price. You think it's not just price, it's the fact that they have to go to these um foreign sources because the domestic sources don't want to sell to them. Correct. Yep. Wow. Wow. That's an even bigger problem. And that's I couldn't agree more with Sean. Like I am been in the distri distribution model for the last decade. That's exactly what's happen like to the letter. Um, and you know, it's been unfortunate for my experience with Lion. We never wanted to go direct. It doesn't matter what the market says about Lion. We never the direct sale model wasn't what we really wanted to do, but we were pushed to do it. And out of the woodwork was all these clients going, "Wow, about time." But it's not that I don't want to push American products, Like, where do I get them from, Sean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you've got a great product, but when you go into an everyday product like me, it's like, where do we go to get an American product that's affordable, you know what I mean? That's that I can sell to everyone competitively. Bo, you turn up in that beat it up F-150 and my first question to you is I got this paper going, "Do you have a yard?" "Oh, nope." "Do you have a fork?" "Oh, nope." "Uh, then you don't fit in our model. Go to Home Depot." I'm like, "Yeah, no disrespect Home Depot, right?" Like, they've got a place, but it's like that's not how we should be treating our professional. Well, that's interesting. You know what's interesting about this, Sash, is I did an interview, which I think is coming out not too long. Um I don't know if I can say it. Susan's gonna be like, "Why do you tell everybody everything?" But I'm really bad at talking. I am really bad. She's in the back going like this right now. Don't. She doesn't even know what I'm going to say. She doesn't even know what I'm going to say. She's doing this. You know what I mean? Right. You guys can't see her, but she's just like, "Stop." She's got red lines going up there and stuff. You can see it. So, um, but nonetheless, I did an interview with, uh, Fencing Times and we talked to them for a long time and, um, I don't even know about this direct sale model, whatever you want to call it. They don't none of this stuff they've never even heard of over there in Europe. And this was a Europe European magazine and they just say, "Well, here's the deal. If we have a product, we're selling it." And they're they this is not even uh it's not even a subject that anybody discusses. So, um what um that being said, what do you think the problem is with the direct sale model? And and by the way, let's explain what a direct sale model is. That would be manufacturers selling, they call it directly to the integrators or the dealers or the fence installers, right? not directly to the um homeowners or the end users, but directly to around the distributors, directly to the installers. So, um what scares everybody so much about it? If every other country in the world is doing it and nobody's complaining about it in those countries, what is scaring everybody in our industry to the point where we're judging people by who they're selling their equipment to? You know, what do you think that is? What do you think's scaring everybody on it? Sean, do you want to answer that or these? Personally, I think that some of these companies have developed such a good

Relationship with some of the bigger players in the area that they're afraid to step on their feet. And because of that, they're afraid to sell to all these smaller potential upand cominging companies. I mean, that that's what I'm witnessing, right? like that that's just what I'm hearing from our customers is that uh you know so and so down the road buys so much from this company that they won't sell to the other six of us that are within a 20 mile radius. So I mean I I get the I get the standpoint and I get where they're coming from because eventually you know that's going to step they're stepping on other people's toes and I I get it. At the same that's preventing six other companies from having a chance to to grow and develop a career and a a living for themselves. I'm gonna pull this back up. Matt Warner um if you don't know who Matt Warner is, great guy. I mean one one of my favorites kind of like you sash I call you and talk for an hour. It's the same thing I can do with Matt. So um but nonetheless uh he says it's because they don't like the direct sale model because eventually they'll sell direct to the consumers. It's already happening. Um, what do you think of that, Sash? Since you're one of the the manufacturers that sells defense. So, let me answer that question with this statement. Who supplies the box stores? Well, last time I checked, the biggest suppliers of fence in America supply to the box stores. So, I agreed with that. And look, I was, listen, I was in our industry and I worked for, you know, second, third largest distributor in all of America. And it I don't have any problem with it. Until this model changes, till you say no to supplying fence products to a fence person, that's where this model is wrong. Up until then, it it doesn't matter, right? Like, we're just selling fence. I don't understand why this is so complicated, but we don't want to talk about the real elephant in the room. I am sorry, but if you're supplying the box store, you are going direct to the home owner. Don't kid yourself. I think they're considering well and by the way I'm a big fan of the distributor because I think that the distributor helps you know if you get the quality distributors and you get them you know even on a local level distributors and stuff um I'm a big fan of the distrib I mean everybody knows that I'm a big fan of distribution because without that the small fence companies don't even have a shot because they can't buy um a truckload of fence materials and all that stuff so it's uh it's definitely needed the the the and no one's talking about price Brian like what we're talking about his service. You buy a truckload of product from law and I'll look I'm going to be open, right? Be open if we can until Susan cuts me off and says you're out of here. But look, you buy you buy like Brian Las Vegas fans, right? You own Las Vegas vans. You you buy bulk. Yes, you're going to get I'm not going to give the F-150 truck guy that turns up the same price as you. But it doesn't mean I can't service him. Mhm. Doesn't mean I'm not going to say to him, "Oh, sorry, sir. You, we don't service you because of X, Y, and Z." Right. So, I'm sorry. It's not It's not about price at all. It's never been about price. But we're making this about I'm You cannot buy fence product or fence machinery from me. Go over there. Like I'm like, "Yeah, but no one's discussing price." And I can tell you, I mean, it's we need dist distribution and we need uh and some manufacturers don't have a choice. They have to sell direct. It's because um unless you get a you know, unless you get the the top few distributors that distribute to the entire country and you have a product as a manufacturer, you have no choice but to go direct. Um and that's only because uh you go to the you know, say you have a new product and we went to a distributor, if they decide not to carry it, you have to sell it direct. So you and then are judged because you of who you sell to. And I think this is where the problem is. Not necessarily that manufacturers are selling directly to defense companies. It's because um I think Matt over here I got to go back and read those. I I saw

Them popping up. But he says they're killing them. It's because we stopped um we stopped judging our our companies by literally by the service and their products and the quality of the products. We started judging them on who they're selling uh their products to. And I think that's where it kind of maybe went astray. And um you I mean going back to what you said you know in Las Vegas obviously I've been selling fence and materials by the way in Las Vegas material sales is 40 to 60% of our business at Las Vegas fence and it always has been. So um and I remember selling materials and all of us local fence companies would sell to the smaller local companies and that was just a chain that would happen as well. So there was a chain that went on between and it were it flowed pretty nice actually. You had the manufacturers that went to the distri when it was all respected you know in the right chain when the manufacturers would sell to the distributors and the distributors were more open to selling to everybody. there wasn't anybody being not sold to. And then they would sell to fence companies, you know, and fence companies would then turn around even and sell to smaller fence companies in our area. And then I remember when um Home Depot, I think it was Master Hako back then, it was a long time ago, back when it was before the people that own it now owned it. They were the very first ones, I believe back then, to start selling materials at the Home Depot locally. And we were all livid, man. We were pissed, right? Because now all of a sudden, all the homeowners weren't coming to us fence companies. And that that material sales was a large amount of our overhead costs that would would cover our rent maybe on our on our property, maybe pay for that girl that was answering the phone. Um, and all of that. So then they started selling to all the Home Depot and stock in all the Home Depot. And that just started it that opened up the gate for now everybody soon as they saw that this is a market to sell to, everybody, including the the foreign companies with the iron panels and all that started saying, "Well, we can start bidding on that." And then it price even just went down further and further. And then it got to the point where literally I think uh Lowe's or so merchants must provide to them now or something, right? Or something like that. They make deliveries because you see them on the trucks, the same trucks that deliver to us. It got to the point where even chain link in Las Vegas, I could buy it cheaper at Home Depot than I could get it from my distributor. And um and they say, well, you know, because they buy in bulk. And I'm like, well, I get it, but we we literally at some point we we made a shift to where we actually give the best pricing to anybody as long as you're not a fence company. the f if you're an actual fence or a gate installer, you don't get the best price. They fight over it feels like, I'm not saying it happens, feels like they're fighting over the general contractors, the the big box stores, and anybody and everybody. And now they're bidding in in in Nevada, the the distributors are bidding directly to the state of Nevada on the contracts. Endot, they're chasing down all that because as times get a little rougher, they're bidding. So, at what point um is there a line that everybody says, "Okay, everybody's selling to everybody, you know, and you can't, you know, you can't be selling to everybody and then expect everybody else to respect the chain." So, I everybody, but you know, as a whole. So, I don't know what what's your opinion on that. Where do you think this is going to go? And I'm not I'm not saying I hope nothing changes to be honest to a degree. You know what I mean? Because I like the model how it works. Where do you think this is going to go if we stay on the path we're on in five or 10 years? If we don't change anything at all. Sash, I'm asking you on the fence side in the materials. Yeah. Look, so just so I can backtrack for one second, answer that question. No one's saying that distribution model should be gone. No one ever said that. What we're saying is that there is a direct sale model that has come into our industry because of a need. I don't. So I come from a country that has, you know, like Australia is not as big as America population. Fencing is huge though. The biggest fence line in the world is in Australia, right? So fencing is a big industry. So I just come from a country and and my

Background, so everyone's clear on that is I used to run a fence company. So I didn't come I actually came from the install side and we couldn't purchase stuff the same a bigger company could. Right? That's just normal, right? No one's arguing with anyone on that. But we went for direct. Like we looked to find and buy as much as we could. This is a small company. We ran four trucks, right? Three, actually two when I got there. So we weren't very big, right, when I got there. But we're always looking a way to buy something direct, right? That's just how it works in Australia and Europe. I'm sorry, that's facts. So coming over here from that model. Okay. Yes, I I see like it is you have to have distribution. You got to like no one's ever going to argue that. But when but when you see and I think Sean and and and Brian you brought it up when you see European companies and and Asian companies coming into our industry, there's a reason they're here. Like there's not they're not here cuz there's not a need. They're here because there's obviously a um a need for that, you know. Hey, super nice guy is on the call. Oh my gosh. How did he get Did he Susan, did you send him a link? Is that what's going on? Susan, let me in. By the way, I got the mic. If anybody's looking for the mic, I have it. Marissa Matt's got the mic. Hold on a sec. Hold on. You're in the fridge. I saw you over there. I you know what the problem is, Matt? I can't read all those that Susan pulls them up, so I don't even read them. So, I saw that one you did. I'm like, how do I go back and find it? Okay. So, so I don't I I apologize. I was trying to bounce back and forth and trying to email and get back in and I was actually still working and and Oh, hold on a sec. Can I get one? Can I get one? So, so anybody that doesn't know who you are real quick because I I mean I know we all know who you are and most of the people watching probably do. So, uh Sash, everybody, it's Matt Warner. Everybody knows Matt Warner uh from you know from obviously from my salesman. He's got uh Becky's got one of his signs up here, don't we? Oh man, I thought I had one of your netting empire look. Oh, how did you get that? I don't give that to anybody. Hey, so in all seriousness here here's the thing that has been bugging me about this distribution and and uh is it Sasha? What's your name? Yes. Yeah. Hey, uh you got that uh Minnesota accent, so I didn't know Alabama. Alabama. Yep. Yep. Y uh sounds like Minnesota, don't you know? Because it's time because it's time to get to work now. So I got the welding helmet on because uh Matt Warner's here. No. No. Well, so here's the thing, guys. Um, first of all, first and foremost, buying from your competitors locally is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. It's a great way to network with them. I I sell to my local people around here all the time, and I'm always trying to help people out, and I'm always telling fence companies, "Hey, come on over. I've invited other fence companies. When Sean King comes here to train, I pay for the training, and then I invite seven or eight more fence companies to come. Only one or two usually show up. So, I'm saying, "Hey, let's get better together because I really do believe in the philosophy high tides raise all ships." I really do believe in that and I believe in helping everybody. Matter of fact, anybody that ever calls me or says, "Hey, I'm struggling with my business or I'm struggling with this." I always first thing I say is one, I'm not a coach. I suck at coaching. But I will cheer for you and I will tell you what's worked for me and then you go work for what's for you and make your own recipe. Yep. I getting back feed here or am I okay? No, you sound good over here. We don't hear nothing. You're good. [snorts] Good. So, so I tell them all the time because you know what? A few fence companies helped share some ideas with me when I first got I started this thing in 2009.

I didn't really start growing until I finally figured out that it's okay to ask other people for help. And all I did was and ask for help. But here's what I don't like. Right now, there's a major distribu or a major manufacturer in the Midwest. I'm not going to say who it is. They might be in Tulsa and they might be ginormous, but I'm not going to say who it is. And it really ticks me off because they are selling directly to the power companies and then they expect me to give the warranty and I want them I tell them all the time, no, you call Kevin down at at uh Steven's Pip and Steel and you sell to them and then they will sell to me because I need them to help represent me in your product. They will go to bat for me because they buy way more than I do. And by the way, we buy quite a bit. I'm not I'm not saying we're ginormous, but we're a goodsized company and we have the power to buy truck truckload stuff. But that's not where the that's not where it is. It all balances out because the small guy has way less overhead. My overhead I I have four accountants. I have I have people that are in charge of safety. I have safety directors. I have I have way more overhead than the guy just starting out. And I tell them all the time, you're going to beat me on price. I have to try to sell our experience. I have to try to sell them we longevity. I have to use other ammo. By the way, I used to beat the big guys on price when I first got started. And that was the ammo I had to use. We have to change your ammo. You have to constantly be improving your game and and what you are and who you are. And you have to have an identity. Yeah. Maybe it's all those Monday morning meetings. You just can't afford them no more. It's I think so. You know, don't be don't be complaining to me about your overhead. Every time I see a picture, you got everybody just standing around. You know, you know why I love that? The better I make our the better and the more effort I put into our people because now we're in a different era. We're in a different stage thing. And by the way, it is expensive to have 80, 90, 100 people in that meeting every Have you seen uh Payton, our our marketing director? She's been shooting out these great videos of stuff that we do. By the way, we've done 437 Monday morning meetings in a row because committed to making better humans. I haven't been invited to one. You are all invited. I So, get this uh scene. If you want to come, here's what And you can ask anybody. I've had lots of fence companies have come. If you get here, I will pay for your room and board. I will feed you a steak dinner. I will not overcook your steak and I will give you a tour of our facilities and on Monday I will dedicate the entire day to you. I will cut my entire day out because I do believe in giving back to this industry that has helped me put my kids through co well my kids put themselves through college. My kid has has helped us put a roof over our head and has taken care of me. This industry has given me more than I ever deserve and I owe the industry a big thank you for that. You are all welcome to come join me anytime. If they let me on tonight, Susan, Brian wouldn't have done. I have you blocked. So, she's must have went in and fixed it. I don't even know how that works. Here's what here's here's why I get fired up about this. Folks, if you don't buy from your distributors, we're going to lose them. we don't want to go direct. You don't buy direct. I need a representative between I need somebody that buys way more than I do to say, "Listen, you mess with my customer. Don't do that again. And I'll tell you, I've called um I've called my distributors. I've called merchants. I've called them out and asked for their help and they went to bat for me. They took good care of me. And don't we need to stop trying, By the way, I had that company in Tulsa try to buy, sell to me direct, and bypass my distributor. I know the game they're playing. They would have just marked it up a little bit and made the same margin that my distributor would have made. Instead, I said, "No, you sell to my distributor and stop trying to sell." I think it I mean, I think it's a very interesting point of view there. There there's no doubt. Wait, can I can I answer that, though? Can I um Let me just say

I experienced it firsthand. So, I'm an ex fencing installer on the supply side in Minnesota. When the when the big guys sign exclusivity deals and then tell you, "We're not going to buy no more," it creates a market that So, what do I do? So, what do you do with that business? Do you just go, "Okay, we're just going to go and bet." So, so just hear me out. Um, because you're right, you're 100% No one's like, "We need to love to hear that. Can you tell my wife that phrase?" Yeah, I try to tell my wife that all the time and she won't listen to me at all. So, you know, and I don't know half the time if she understands what I'm saying, too. So, that's probably half of it, you know. So, I I agree 100%. The issue is though, that's not how the market's working at the moment. It was how the market was working, but over the last few years, so for example, Matt, it's been hard for Lion, right? I work for a big company and I never wanted to leave the company but we when exclusivity is a sign and then just go and throw it away. There's a like you're dealing with families that are trying to provide a lifestyle and a living and then I know for a fact that service is the key. But at some point you can't be gouging the whole industry. So if there's only three suppliers in the country, that means that there's limited chance that the little guy, not everyone else, but the little guy gets that opportunity. And you hit on the head. Yes, they have less overhead 100%. So they should be fighting the battle on a different level. And I agree with you, but when the when the the price is so different, it's hard to fight that. It's not it's not easy for the small guy when you're starting a business to go and fight a a battle that they're already lost at the very start like and which is products right and I love this industry like you said m it's provided everything for my family and there's nothing more I want to do than see this industry succeed with distribution not on without the direct model is not a win-win model it's not but the countries in the world that have the model, they have it because they're smaller, right? It's a little different. The atmosphere is different, lifestyle is different. But here in America, yeah, we we don't want the distribution model to go away. But what do I do if I can't buy product? So, let's say I'm quoting the same exact product as you, but you are getting it for 50% less. That's ridiculous. Stop, stop, stop, stop. Okay, I let you go for a long time, but just ludicrous. Nobody's buying 50% less on material. Oh, no. It's not ludicrous. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. Don't even tell me there. If if you're selling to the big guys for 50% less, same because you'll make more money by selling to more smaller contractors than that one big one that you're scared to lose. If take actually if you would if you would toughen up a little bit and say, you know what, we're not going to seal the deal with that big guy. we're gonna we're going to sell more little guys at a higher margin so we can actually be profitable and so we can actually because you're if you're not making any money on that big guy then that means you're making it all on the little guys back and that's not nice. So here's the deal. I'm going to tell you right now I have a distribution for our sports construction and I've made a promise to all my friends in the industry that I will not sell to uh Empire for any different price than I will sell to you. And you know what? I hope my honesty and integrity in the industry shows that. But people say, "But Matt, you beat me." And I always say, "I beat you because I'm more efficient than you. If you come to me, I will teach you how to be more com competitive because I can't do all the jobs anyhow. So, I need you in the industry. I just did this with Canon. I just did this with Sha Shane Canton. I just did this with all these other guys. There's a few out there, a few of the old stubborn ones. There's one there's one in Missouri. And he says, "Matt, I'll never buy from you." And we used to be friends, I thought. Yeah. But he won't buy from me because he says I can't beat empire. And I keep telling him it's not the price, it's the efficiency. It's not the price of the material. We all I've said this and if you ever follow anything I say online, I've said we all pay people about the same. We all pe pay for material about the same. Especially us guys that are in the middle because I'm not the biggest

And I'm not the smallest. I'm in the middle. We all pay it. Where you win is by efficiency. And this is where I tell people whether you like Sean King or not, that guy is training people how to be more efficient and how to have a repeatable process. And that's why he will always go down as a Hall of Famer in my book in this. Amen brother. So, so you know what, Matt? So, while we're on that, what do you think of this? To stop saying that it's the price of the material. buy high quality material and sell the best and and take the best care because the fence industry is known for selling shoddy [ __ ] stuff. Sorry, I didn't mean to cuss. But start selling better product. That's why I love this pounded post with uh with the MA masterco post because it's a 100 mph wind loads. I love where we're going in the industry right now because we're selling the homeowners a better product. That's why you love CMM machines because it's a great product and I have one. So, what do you think of this? Uh, Robert Evers, we got this new Facebook Marketplace model that's going to be happening here where um everybody's going to be buying through Facebook Marketplace. I mean, what do you think that's going to do to the market? Stop it. But but you know I you know what I agree Matt to a degree but um you might be um even you me and some of us are on a different level but it was and but sometimes there is a large difference you know and and I think where you like where the industry is going right now but if we don't if we don't get a hold of it and we don't start focusing on where the industry is going to be it's going to be a whole another story because we may like that that we can innovate right now. You may you know that Sean King's coming up with different ways to drive post and other people are and they're they're driving concrete nails through posts and they're doing whatever they want around the country, right? But if you get to a highly regulated state, which by the way, I happen to be living in the most highly regulated state in the country, you can't you you will eventually if you don't stop the the even some of the manufacturers and some of the suppliers and everybody that's getting behind all the consumer protection groups and all the government and and they're supporting them instead of the fence industry. If you don't stop all of this regulations and you don't control it and control and have this controlled by people that are dealing with it on a daily basis, you're going to end up not being able to drive a post. Did you know you're right, Ryan, but that's a different topic. That's not what you're right. The working uh with the fence companies and not and not trying to get more regulation. You're right. I'm all for I hate as a whole as a whole. We need to be working on standards, but these standards need to be voluntary. more time on that and less time on trying to give a 50% discount to the big guy. Plus, it happens for you. But but Matt, it happens, man. I'm in the industry, buddy. I do supply and I have been for 12 years. It's it's what happens. Like, I'm not I'm not saying anything because I'm not It's rubbish. I was I work for the second biggest company in America and Lion is not like we're not we're not trying to there is there is a disconnect and that's what we're talking about. It's a disconnect. It's not it's not whether it's right or wrong. There is a disconnect that's all and we're trying to bring that disconnect back. No one's going to I was in the industry. I know that's what's going on. And it's just like we need to just bring it back. We need to remember that this is about the fencing community, not about any of this other stuff. And that's what I'm passionate about is this big disconnect. That's it's more than it's more than this five or 10% because you buy in bulk. And and I can tell you this, I I've seen it. I've experienced it, you know, in Las Vegas. We're like on an island. It might as well be Hawaii. So, you know, we're we're it's we're it's not like we can go 45 minutes and find another million people, two million more suppliers. We're stuck with who comes in here. But um what happens is you get a say you're a manufacturer and say we all get together and we create a product and we go and we get architects to spec it out

And then a GC you know puts it out to bid right and us as a small fence company we should have an opportunity to bid that project and bid it competitively and then it should come down to efficiency. It should come down to you know I tell people all the time if the difference between you winning a job or losing a job or making money on the profit or not was a couple hundred on a gate operator or a little bit on material then you bid it too low to begin with. Right? So that the material shouldn't be a factor really in in whether you get the job or not. It should have been your overhead and how efficient you were and and what you're able to do. So that should be the factor in whether you get a job or not. But if you spec out a project and you you as a manufacturer get get uh architects and and and stuff to spec it out, put it in the plans, the GC says, "I want to bid for it." You call up the manufacturer and they say, "Well, I can't sell it to you." Now, keep in mind, you you may not have bought the product before, right? You just call up, "Well, I can't sell it to you. You got to go through this distributor." distributor says, "Well, um, we already have someone that," and I'm not saying this happens on an every time basis, but it happens enough to where they may not want to even or they have to sign up. They have to create an account before they even give you a price, and that might take a week or two. You're going to miss your bid date. You know what I mean? And you might not even be able to bid the project in the beginning, or they'll say, "We can't sell to you and set an account up at all." This happens more than you think across the board. Then you basically decided who's going to get that job or not. Raise your hand. Yeah. I I don't I don't I think I think I I don't think you're exactly accurate that. So most of the the Master Hos, the Stevens Piping Steel and all them, they sell directly to the fence company. They're loyal to us fence guys. By the way, if I ever see one of them selling directly to a general contractor, I call them up and say, "That's [ __ ] You you should not sell to them. I come to Nevada. Come to Nevada." Like I mean, they're bidding. What we have to do then is we have to go to the mountain that Brian that's your number one job free press is to go out there and call them out there because there is netting suppliers out there that are selling directly to the to the consumer. That's why I started [snorts] my own manufactur

Stuff that you're not going to be able to unsee because I'm telling you right now it's happening the the distributors that are supposed to be and I'm not keep in mind I buy from all the distributors but I'm telling you right now they're bidding to the GC's and because I know because the GC's we see the quotes too. So they're bidding directly to F1. It's being done in town locally, you know, on on the on the right here, the people that we would normally sell the temporary panels to and all this stuff as a fence guy, right? I mean, as a person that's doing it. So it's happening right now in Nevada. They're bidding directly to the state of Nevada, to the Nevada Department of Transportation, all the GCs. They're the manufacturers though, not the distributors. Well, no, no, the distributors are chasing it. They're making direct bids to VGC. Send me an email on which distributors are doing because I personally want to call all those CFOs and CEOs and tell them to stop it. It's uh Okay. I mean, I I mean, like I said, I'm not I'm not here to call any one specific out. We're hoping that that that stuff changes, but I'll have another conversation with you. You know what I mean? I don't But it's our job. It's our job as people in the industry that have a voice to say, "Stop it." Yeah. If you do it again, we're going to we're going to rally the troops and we're not going to buy from you anymore. And then the power is in the people. That's the problem is that we go to the government and we go to the dist to the manufacturers to solve the problems. We need to solve it ourselves and say, "Listen, we are going to take a stand and we're going to stop buying it." So I I'm I'm not going to take the red pill. I'm going to say, "Tell me who's doing it and I'm going to be proactive and I'm going to call them. I'm gonna send him an email." So, I know Steven's pipe and steel. If you sell direct, I won't buy from you anymore. That will put a hurt on them. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I I mean, I I'm a I'm a fan of the distributor model. I'm also a fan of just being able to buy materials if you need to. So, Brian, that's why we're having this discussion, right? This is not an easy discussion because it's hard, right? And just like Matt's saying, we got to shout it from the mountaintop. and as a dist distributor that's been in the big boys like it's it's what's going on and we need to fight that right and that's why this direct sale model or whatever we want to call it which is I don't think healthy but it's here because of this it's when you can't you can't deny what's going on there's this there's this big shifting and shaking and you're right like I'm with Matt like yes we should be saying something but I was with them and that's what's going on that's exactly what's happening We need to Do you think and I don't mean to interrupt, but since you obviously you have you have a branch in Texas and you've got one over in um California, right, when it comes down to Lions fencing. So, do you feel that um do you feel that because the West Coast maybe has more import materials that we feel at first like we see this and you know on on the West Coast a little bit more? We because we've had import we've sold we we pretty much have installed nothing but import panels in Las Vegas for 30 years, right? So, do you think that since we are in such a close connection to the import market that it maybe it affects us quicker when all of a sudden the direct sale model hits because um that's who you know we're buying their their stuff already. We're just going through distributors and now they're coming in here. Sasha, Sasha, let's let's just go ahead and tell Brian that you and I got together before the show and said, "Let's finally bring some value to the Fence Life show." So, I So, you Sasha called me and said, "Hey, Matt, I'm push your buttons." And Sean said, "Hey, can I be a part of it?" We all got together and we got you, Brian. Oh, man.

You finally had a good show. Did I just get punked? Did I just get punked? You just got punked. Where's that signature? Yeah. Look, this topic, I don't care who you are. My question is why do I why am I working that line? Like it's it's to me it's not a it's not rocket science, right? I'm just a I tell every I'm just a dumb fencing guy. But there's a reason that I went and did and start and work with Lion and and did what we did. We had no choice. And that's the reason that we're in this dilemma because we need to have a voice. Everybody needs to voice their opinions and we need to Yeah, it's going to get a little rough and you know, but I'm with you, Matt. Like, I'm sorry. You've got insider stuff. I have insider and it's time to voice it because if we want this industry to continue in its good place and I'm with you, but unfortunately line is a perfect example of we had no choice. The big boys told us go over there in that sand pit. we're done with this exclusivity that we signed like that's the truth right and we what just have to just like go bankrupt and then what what do I do with my family right so it's it's not as this whole model is it's all getting disrupted because there's these things that have been going on and Brian me and you have talked about it we know that there's this sort of inner click and Sean you know like from the manufacturing ing department. Like I can be straight. Like we want to be straight. Let's be straight. We use a certain company instead of you and I like your product better than that company. But we were told we had no choice. So when you're telling people don't have choices, come on. This is America. This is a land of the free. And I feel like we're finally starting to voice it. Like you said, Matt, shout it from the mountaintop. I'm in. I'm not saying what I've done is perfect or what Sean, but it's time we voice it because the facts are the facts. I love seeing CMM's product, but we weren't allowed to use it. So, when you're telling me you're not allowed to do something in an America, that's not good. And I feel like that's what that's what's going on right now. It's not a bad thing, but we're just we're talking it, we're voicing it, we're passionate about it. Obviously, look at the four of us, man. I think you want to come through the screen and knock me out, right? We love our industry. I was just trying to I was just trying to bring a different opinion. Brian's trying to be nice and and sometimes he gets a little soft and I got to get him fired up a little bit. Well, here I'll I'm going to leave on this note because um I I I went to work at like 3:30 this morning, so I'm starting to get a little sleepy, but I did want to come in. And by the way, I think this help this dialogue helps our industry when we can talk through it. And I've been telling young fence guys, hey, don't don't don't buy direct. Don't try to buy direct. Just focus on a really good relationship. Pay all your bills. Have a great relationship. Make sure when you collect your deposits that you're pay you're paying your distribute your your your distributors for your material. You're getting jobs in on time. And focus on you. And don't focus on because if you focus on somebody else's grass, you don't know what's underneath that grass. It could be a septic tank. So, be very good about focusing on your own yard and your own grass and don't try to be too fancy or too big. Just go out there and get your systems down and be diligent about showing up for work every single day. Work your butt off and and build revenue. And I tell this to everybody I talk to, build revenue. Just chase that thing. And you have to grind it. And by the way, what we do extremely tough. I'm grinding it right now. We we had a division that failed and that wasn't doing very good. And and it wasn't because of one person. It was because me. I didn't notice what was going on. My people needed help. With that being said, I'm gonna let you all go. I love it. Brian, keep up the dog. Sasha, I would love to visit with you sometime. I don't take it personally. I'm just being honest and maybe I shouldn't have got in. No. No. Matt, I was excited. I was excited you came on. All kidding aside. So, I appreciate that. Matt Matt, I'm going to come visit you. I want a steak and a bourbon. I'm coming to see you, Dan.

Oh my god. So, we have this brand new bourbon that's made with pet beex corn, the same kind of corn hybrid that we plant uh on my little farm. I got about 300 acres. I do farming as a hobby on the side and it is really good. So, Sean, come and have a bourbon with me and eat a steak. And Brian, come and I'll overcook one steak for you. The only steak I ever You're invited. Everybody's invited to Nebraska. You're invited and you're invited. And you're invited. We're going to take you up on it. Hey, thanks Matt. Wow, the guy's got some energy. The only thing I was gonna say is I I agree with Matt 100%. I think it's I think it's wrong and I don't agree with it, but I have six buddies I could name that are personally going through this where they're being told they cannot buy from a certain company and they have to buy from one of the other companies. So, I I agree. I think it's wrong. I think it's shady. Braden agrees, but um it's the truth, right? Like that's what's happening and it's not right, but it it is right. I think Sean, I think it's not about who's wrong and right. It's about sharing the truth. So, as a community, we can get it out and work it out, whether it's what, you know, like whatever it is, but we got to get it out. And I feel like that's the issue. We wanna we wanna we want to say something but the truth is this like there's truth and like and information my opinion is once you're informed it's over like you know now it's your choice whether you agree or not that's not the point but you're informed and I think that's what's exciting. Yeah. I do want to thank you guys for coming on too and I want to close it out with um the fact that you know while we did uh go in a bunch of different directions on this thing. I don't want anybody to think that uh you know we're opposed to distributors or manufacturers or anybody any one particular person. Um, and you know, there's a place for everything. And if we can get to a place where the distributors are doing what they're obligated to do to the industry and what manufacturers are doing, what and what us fence companies and everybody, we have a responsibility to each other and to, you know, in a way to the consumers and, um, you know, us to our members and stuff as an association. But, um, if you know, if we don't get that back on track, uh, we will lose that like what Matt said, we will lose that that segment of it. It will end up turning into a direct sale model completely. And there is a benefit to um some distribution um you know on certain items and things like that as well where um to follow up on what he said if you buy something you know sometimes I tell people all the time well you know you may get a better deal through distribution and if there's a problem they'll help with the RMAs they'll help with uh you know issues like that with dealing with the manufacturer they may be able to get something to you a lot quicker things like that and and if it's a stocking distributor and it's a product you can go pick up without them you may not have access to that kind of stuff. So, um, the small fence companies do depend heavily on those distributors when they first start out. So, we need them and the only way we can protect them is to make sure they stay like they like everybody wants us to stay in our lane to make sure they stay in their lane as well. And uh, but we have to support them if we're going to ask them to stay in their lane. So, um, it's a it's a team effort all the way across um, the board. So, thank you guys for coming on. If you had any last thing you guys wanted to add, um, I really appreciate it. You guys have been a huge support on this uh, podcast. I just wanted to say thanks for having me, man. I know when we talked in Evansville, dude, I've I've really appreciated you. You know, I've only been in the industry for 15 months, but every time I'm around you, I just feel like I learn more. I become a better person, and really appreciate everything you, Susan, FWA's done for me, CMM, and looking forward to the future. Cool. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, we feel the same way. There's no doubt. Yeah. Sash, any last words? I mean, we won't understand what you're saying anyway, so you might as well say it. Yeah. No, it doesn't matter. So, hey, shout out to FWA women. What they're doing FWA ladies, keep it up. Um, it's impressive.

Don't stop. FWA don't stop. Like, this discussion needs to keep going. It's going to get heated. Who cares? Like, we're just going to we just need to talk about it. And and that's what's so exciting about the future of this industry. It's changing, but we need to talk. We just need to get out there and and you know there's a lot of great people, great distribution companies just Yeah. And we just need to support it and we need to stop fighting and start talking like just let it go. Support each other. Yeah. So great. I couldn't agree more. Um thank you guys and uh we will see you everybody that was watching this. If you're watching this live, thanks for coming live. If you're watching this uh in the future, thanks for uh taking the time to watch it. I know taking an hour out of your day is a is a big deal. So hopefully you fast forwarded through um everything else unless you saw my lips moving. But um we'll talk to you guys later. Thanks again. All right. See you guys. See you. All right. Bye. Nice meeting you, man. Nice to meet you.